>Not trying to argue, levels this high in October are clearly in the danger >zone. I was simply questioning your blanket assertion that soft treatments >couldn't bring down high mite levels. I would be very interested to see >your supportive data. Thanks. Impressive. Seems the weather cooperated, you did things right, and all is well. Again, I never said they "couldn't bring down high mite levels", those are your words ascribed to me. I said "soft treatments are known to have problems bringing down high loads". As for references, I think at scientificbeekeeping.com, a most reputable web site, there is a discussion regarding the timing window problem and climate issues for some of these methods. I seem to recall there is also mention of the collateral damage that these chemicals and methods may cause and the potential impact on profitability and/or survival. We've all seen these things work, but there is an element of luck. Also, reportedly, the levels don't seem to stay down the same way as with some of the "hard" chemicals. I don't know why. Additionally, it is harder for the average beekeeper to get uniform resuts with fumigation methods, which many of these are due to hive configuration and population variance among other complications. I'm betting the 4 out of 5 average beekeepers cannot/will not get the sane results that Randy Oliver will. We find some beekeepers can't even use an idiot-proof solution like Apivar with consistent efficacy. Additionally, these "soft" treatments have impacts on bees and brood which are well documented and not entirely predictable and which may impact colony survival if used in doses large enought to bring down heavy loads. As I said, "soft treatments are known to have problems bringing down high loads". If they didn't we would not have sought permission to use Apivar in Alberta or found such a huge improvement in the outfits which adopted it and used it in an IPM setting. It will be interesting to see what the survival will be in the hives you treated. I hope that it will be good, and I hope you ran controls. *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html Guidelines for posting to BEE-L can be found at: http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm