>A statement was made "Show us some research showing that the > neonicotinods do not cause sub lethal > effects (such as reported in France and Italy) and I will be quiet." Proving a negative? In Italy the research testing sub lethal effects was straight forward. Each level of expose caused certain problems in the bees. Sub lethal testing is not rocket science. Lloyd, I know far more about the issue than I put on BEE-L. My article in ABJ brought letters from beeks all over the world plus the U.S.. My email address in the magazine was not correct so I even had many phone. Dadant forwarded me emails! I have had crackpots contact me and chemical companies trying to act like beekeepers. Never a response from the other articles like the article on the neonicotinoids. Like David Hackenberg and CCD I have been pushed to the front of the fight of beeks against the neonicotinoids. The leadership of both organizations are convinced after looking into the neonicotinoids that they are causing problems through sub lethal effects. Hence the first program to get funding was the grant for testing the sub lethal effects of imidacloprid on honey bees ( paid for by Hagen das grant and I believe Mary Ann is doing the research). research in Italy showed serious sub lethal effects from imidacloprid on bees. The bees could not find their way back to the hive. Hello! I approached Bayer about funding sub lethal testing of imidacloprid on bees but the company declined. The national organizations tried! forty grand to Penn State to settle the issue seemed like chump change but the company declined. Beeks in France and Germany asked their Bayer reps to pop for the study. Declined. So now the study is coming. A company rep said off the record that they would denounce findings that sub lethal effects hurt bees on the grounds the study was funded by beekeepers and the researchers were biased. Why do you think Bill, LLoyd, Peter, Jim and the other beek the company does not want to see such a study? Wake up people. We have been down this road with tobacco and hundreds of products. All the beekeepers in the U.S. are asking for is some label changes. Bayer will not even sit down with us and talk. Printed company positions have been sent to both groups. In Europe they realize talking will not solve the issue so they are pushing for bans. I respect everyone's opinion but you need to keep an open mind. Do not confuse neonicotinoid issues with CCD . Off label use of temik ( Bayer) is killing many many hives in Orange in Florida. The situation is very serious to those beeks. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************