Hello All, I think we need to wait and see what Jerry B. finds in Dee's bees. Despite the fact Dee's bees are in areas with commercial bees they certainly are not in the same holding yard. It would not surprise me to find Dee does not yet have nosema ceranae. When nosema ceranae comes calling things change. It is interesting Dee's level of varroa seems to be dropping from the time Allen Dick visited and said he saw varroa but the varroa seemed to be causing her bees little problems. (see Allen Dicks beekeeping diary) Having kept many survivor colonies I have found one common thing. Survivor bees keep small clusters. The "live and let die" method selects *in my opinion* for bees which keep smaller clusters and bees which shut down brood rearing with weather changes which is a form of varroa control. In experiments I have taken survivor bees which survived varroa when left alone ( same location and no feed) and then cranked up as we do in commercial beekeeping. Fed 4-5 gallons of syrup to stimulate brood rearing. sent into almonds , then apples , then honey flow with strong brood rearing for 7-8 months. By August those survivor bees were crashing from varroa. it is my opinion the the same would happen if Dee's or Michael Bush's bees were done the same way. Would be an interesting experiment. My last experiment 2007/2008 I will now share. Both groups of hives were given the same treatments last fall and this spring. One group sat on permanent locations and the other was sent into almonds and then apples. The stationary group you have a hard time finding a varroa mite. The other group had some DWV and high varroa loads after apples. The experiment involving a large number of hives makes me believe that a big difference exists in varroa loads when migratory beekeeping and simulative feeding is involved. It also makes me believe that to stay in business the commercial migratory beek needs to treat as needed. With treatment the migratory bees paid the mortgage. Pollinated the U.S. pollination needs. I am glad Dees and others bees are surviving without treatments however I have not seen any of those methods which will work for the migratory beek. Also high desert temps (heat) is a varroa control. You can kill varroa on bees with a temp around 120F.( if I remember correctly) Desert temps in Arizona reach these temps. bob **************************************************** * General Information About BEE-L is available at: * * http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm * ****************************************************