Peter: > Before that it was basically a black box. Allen: > Was that necessarily a bad thing? Peter: To me, knowledge is always better than ignorance. Knowledge can be misapplied and lead to negative consequences, but the consequences of ignorance are worse. Think about medicine, for example. Before antibiotics and vaccinations people died from minor infections. Sure, modern medicine makes people less resistant to disease, but who wants to have ten kids just to get one or two good ones (like they did even 100 years ago). Allen: > Another reason is that the products of the breeding programs prove less fit than the local bees, and that the characteristics are not sufficiently fixed to endure. Peter: The reason that the bees are "less fit" has to do with what they are being selected for. It is not the fault of bee breeding itself. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. The same thing is true in all animal husbandry. If you breed only for productivity or appearance, you can lose vitality. * * * Peter: > steps would have to be taken to eradicate the mongrelized local stock. Allen: > I think that 'eradication' would be a mistake, and rather that their good points and adaptation should be used in any such program. Yeah, well, I disagree on this. I think the idea that the "bees in the woods" are somehow better adapted, is nonsense. They are just escaped swarms anyway so they are no different than any old neglected bees. A lot of these neglected hives have vigorous stock, but that's because if they didn’t they would have perished. It is not logical to conclude that therefore neglected stock is more vigorous on the whole. If somebody wants more vigorous stock, they can simply let the weak ones perish. That's what a lot of large scale operators do anyway. They don't have time to fuss with the duds so they just let them die out. In the past beekeepers selected for productivity or temperament. Now vigor and disease resistance should be foremost. A further disincentive to using wild hives is that these are a source of African genes. I think there are plenty of good lines to choose from and if these bees are not good enough to do the job, then we need to try harder. But no good will ever come from going back to the days when beekeeping was basically just catching swarms and robbing them, with no idea what was going on inside of the hive. I learned a long time ago that there isn't enough time to do all the things that you would like to do with your bees so you have to concentrate on the things that matter most. Re-queening from good stock is one the best things you can do for your bees, and I sure wouldn’t want to try to do that in a hive with without frames. pb -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---