Hi Mark and Everyone, > > There you go, in your last sentence, putting your needs before the needs of the bees Well, that's what happens when one requires the bees to live in the beekeeper's equipment, for the beekeeper's convenience, rather than in the tree itself. :>))) The focus on commercial beekeeping is important for commercial beekeepers. But thinking that another type of focus is of lesser merit and somehow inferior to a commercial point of view is typical of the one size fits all thinking. The discussion concerning square frames illustrates my point. The entire emphasis on that discussion centers on what a beekeeper would be comfortable lifting. Yet, although a single deep hive can be lifted, it's neither easy nor comfortable. And how many beekeepers run a hive in a single deep? Want to try lifting a double or a triple hive, ready for winter, by hand? How many commercial beekeepers still lift any hives by hand anymore? Mark, I hope you're not still lifting and throwing everything by hand. And there's not a single thought about the impact of the shape/size of the box on the colony itself, only on the impacts to the beekeeper. The bee is a very adaptable creature and can function in many circumstances in spite of our enlightened equipment and management. But in other areas, our standard practices, can negatively impact the bees. Today, a commercial focus requires that a beekeeper optimize the moving of boxes and to a much lesser extent the subtleties of the bees themselves. In this area, an amateur can have a great advantage over the commercial guy. He can have the time and energy to focus primarily on the bees themselves and to a lesser extent on the moving of boxes. And he can try options that are way beyond anything an economic feasibility study would promote as feasible. Concerning lifting supers, a smaller super is much easier to lift than a larger one. But maybe there are other alternatives that don't involve lifting any supers at all. And not lifting a super is much easier than lifting any super, no matter how shallow :>))) Regards Dennis Starting throwing 8 frame deeps, 5 high by 5 across in 1968 Continued throwing 9 frame deeps 5 high by 5 across in 1976 Started tossing 9 frame shallows and mediums 9 high to 12 high by 5 across in 1993 Stopped throwing all supers in 2000 and liking it much better -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---