Hi Guys, The term 'organic' has always been an arbitrary one, except when I took organic chemistry :>) It's usually defined by an 'organic' guru and promoted by his followers. It's not so much a products state as it is a way of production. Dissention is a common hallmark of organic production as one guru's methods will differ from another guru's. The most vocal guru or the one with the most adherents usually controls the direction/definition organic production goes, at least for awhile :>) Controversy is not new with organic honey. Just take a look at the past controversies in organic gardening/farming concerning the use soil additives like gypsum, etc. In the US, there are only a couple of voices actively promoting 'Organic Beekeeping'. And I definately know which one talks the loudest on the internet. :>) That person is fanatically passionate about small cell/organic beekeeping and is greatly invested in the ideas/methods/issues associated with it. Don't expect any recognition or much time from that person if you disagree with the methods. The info on the home pages, for the lists run by that person say it all, basically no nothing, no how. And the lists are not discussion lists outside the narrow realm stated on the home pages. And that's not bad. It's just the preacher preaching to the choir:>) But that's not hijacking the word organic unless one lets that happen. I know of at least 6 beekeepers who have been using some variation of small cell beekeeping in their hives for 5 years or more. And all of them have had a good measure of success with it. None of them are fully invested in all the methods purported by that small cell guru. Yet, they are indebted, as I am, to that guru for sharing the small cell concept. And they are personally responsible for sorting out the wheat from the chaff for themselves. I'm on a roll, lookout!:>))) I find it a curious matter, that the idea that cell size/broodnest structure can affect bee behavior, is met with such hostility. When beekeepers share their small cell observations, and expect others to do their own sorting, the cries of Prove! Prove! are quickly produced as though the observations/results were fabrications. I find the most responsible course is to try and see for ones self why the observations/results are possible. It may require a little work, thinking, and some measure of time. It's alot harder than sitting around crying Prove! Prove! and waiting to be told what to do, which I find to be very childish. If someone has differing observations and experience, then bring them forward. Let's discuss them and sort the matter out. But if someones's observations and experience are nitpicked without any of the above, then that behavior reveals a child with a very poor character. Regards Dennis Thinking I must be getting cranky with my gray hair, as I like the children but hate any extended baby sitting. -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---