Hello All, I really don't want to get involved again in this subject but will add a few points. I really do not consider my friends Allen or Jerry in the mainstream of the beekeeping grapevine. Also Telling all your fellow beekeepers (to many commercial beekeepers) your hives died from whatever reason is like sharing you just got a shot of antibiotic from your doctor for a dose of the clap in the circles I travel in! Jerry said: I did not hear from any beekeeper or researcher convincing arguments for a varroa induced crash. When was the last time the bee lab sent teams to California to look at a situation and take samples? Jerry said: -- I find 5 mites per hive hard to rationalize as the cause of the problem. Forget what you think you know about varroa Jerry and ponder the fact that hives did crash this year with just such a low varroa drop. Samples sent by beekeepers to a lab overseas (around the U.S. bee labs )came back showing three bee virus. Kashmire bee virus was the most often found in the PMS smears. One report said their research found a hive can die in three days from Kashmire bee virus. Jerry said: They reported that the 'decimated' hives started their decline months before and many went into the winter in poor shape -- substandard stores and weak populations. same stories I have heard from many BUT not all! Jerry said: I can't even get a number on how many of the commercial beekeepers were reporting heavy losses Are you wishing to help solve the problem or document the problem. Document is a waste of time as the beekeepers involved are looking to the future and not the past. The nice point about varroa is that varroa only lives a week without a host and you can simply drop new bees in and what happened with varroa last season is a memory. Jery said: So, what we need is some hard data. I'm working on a reporting system for bee losses, whether mites, pesticides, bears. Lots of reasons to get this documented. Stay tuned, we will be launching a site for this in the near future. So the solution is in your opinion to document the problem and start a website? I am sorry if you think I am being rough on you but you guys *are* getting the kid gloves treatment here from me. Four letter words are used in many of the beekeeper circles I travel in. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::