Peter I really ought to be removing honey and starting to get ready for the heather, but it is pouring with rain - much needed - so I do not feel so bad about sitting here! Let me try to answer your points: "What I meant by "all its forms" was: There are several symptoms that are displayed by infected brood - colour change, typical range of position, viscosity of tissue, scale formation". These are the stages that I outlined - and are the symptoms that would identify AFB or EFB. "AFB infected brood usually dies after sealing has taken place - but not always. It may occur before sealing takes place". True, but this is rare and the vast majority of the larvae will die after capping and the cappings will then sink; this will indicate AFB rather than EFB. Any that die before capping would not display the white gut of EFB infected larvae. I have seen AFB infected brood in very limited numbers - and it was impossible to state whether it was EFB or AFB - the cells were open". Open because they had not been capped, or open because the cappings had been removed? If the former, then the white gut test should identify AFB or EFB, if the latter then I would expect other cells to present showing an earlier stage that would enable identification. "AFB infected pupae may "rope" if poked at the right stage of putrefaction, but they will not show this trait before and after a certain stage in decay". Agreed, it needs to be at the sunken capping stage. But if the disease has not reached that stage then the cells would be either open (so the white gut test applies) or just capped but not yet sunken - in which case there would be no apparent symptoms and we would not be suspecting either AFB or EFB. "Brood dying after cells have been sealed also occurs. These are symptoms that are not "classic" and therefore allow for confusion" This is a classic symptom! "You mention that EFB does not show symptoms as found with AFB - then go on to list several! - all confusing the situation for the inexperienced". I think that is a little unfair! I said: 'except for a general appearance of patchy or 'pepperpot' brood and, in a few cases, perforated cappings where the larva has died after capping (however, in these cases the remains will not 'rope' as with AFB)'. In other words, I acknowledged that both diseases will cause a general appearance of unhealthy brood (as will chalkbood, sacbrood, genetic abnormality etc) and that a very few larvae with EFB may die after capping - but I then pointed out that these would not 'rope' as AFB does. "I suggest that AFB may be confused with EFB, but EFB is less likely to be confused with AFB (this statement may at first seem illogical!)" I do have difficulty with this statement! Where there is brood present, I find the symptoms are too dissimilar for confusion between EFB and AFB. "AFB may show symptoms that may be seen/ associated with EFB..." But which symptoms, and are you saying that they would be seen exclusively? "Hence my position that it is practically impossible to make a definite diagnosis of AFB in the field. The chances of correctly diagnosing EFB in the field is much better by comparison". Seasonal Bee Inspectors in the UK have always been happy to diagnose AFB positively in the field and destroy colonies on that basis (unless the beekeeper insisted on a sample being taken for analysis first), but would normally always take a sample for laboratory confirmation of EFB (unless the beekeeper insisted on destruction). "I look for and find symptomatic the presence of trachea that are evident to the naked eye whilst attempting to diagnose EFB infected brood". Good point. Another very good indicator of EFB is larvae that turn dorsal side uppermost in the cell at the 3-4 day stage, i.e. with their backs towards you. "Beekeepers should also be educated that when an infection occurs it is not a sin or reflection upon themselves as being incompetent . The irresponsible attitude is expressed when nothing is done or a cover up is attempted. This latter situation occurs frequently as other beekeepers are tempted to point fingers and "bad mouth" unlucky individuals". Could not agree more! My first, and only, experience of AFB in my own colonies came after I bought an entire apiary in the spring of 1984 - inspected by two people - but AFB showed up in September (it seemed that there were scales hidden under winter stores). I called in the NBU and the inspector confirmed my diagnosis. In conversation with him I said that I would contact other beekeepers in the area to tell them. His instant reaction was: 'I would not do that! You will become a pariah.' I said that if that was the case then I would have to become one, as I had already made it clear that I believed that the only was to beat disease is to keep others informed. I don't think that I am regarded as a pariah... "Wishing you seasons free from both of the above!" Many thanks - let's wish everyone seasons free from both the above - and a whole raft of other nasties! Peter Edwards [log in to unmask] www.stratford-upon-avon.freeserve.co.uk/ PS I have no knowledge on parafoulbrood and will bow to anyone who can enlighten. Now I really must go and do some work! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::