Bill Meister reported: >> I had used only Dadant Plasticell foundation for my initial brood >> boxes and the bees drew them out quite nicely. However, I decided >> to try their Duragilt foundation in my newest hive and find the bees >> made this wild arrangement of combs... >> Wax coated Plasticell is USD 0.83 >> Duragilt is USD 0.97. >> My decision was to buy the "best" rather than least expensive because >> my quantities were so small that it made little overall difference. "Highest priced" does not imply best. If you check the archives of Bee-L, or ask beekeepers, there are many who have had problems with Duragilt, but far fewer who have had any problem with Plasticell or the many other similar embossed plastic foundations, both waxed and unwaxed. Robin Dartington said: > If you work at the level of 4 colonies, it sounds very strange not to > start with the simplest and oldest methods. How could hand-wiring frames, and imbedding wax foundation into the wires be considered "simple"? > Plastic foundation is artificial So are metal hive tools, nylon bee brushes, plastic queen excluders, stainless-steel extractors, tin smokers, 8-mesh screen, nails, screws, and so on. About the only "natural" item used in beekeeping these days are smoker fuels! ...and honey bees are not native to North American, either. So what? > and creates special problemns for bees (they find it unnatural, > and try to avoid it by buiding natural comb cross ways) Not if the frames are properly spaced, which is my guess as to the nature of the error. Anyway, he said that he had no problems with Plasticell, which is simply a different line of plastic-based foundation. > and beekeepers ( bees have to be forced to draw it out, Well, one could argue that this is true of any foundation, as bees will not draw additional comb unless they "feel" that they "need" the extra comb (nectar coming in, and limited available drawn comb). > it is difficult to clean and re-wax unless u have tanks for steaming > and dipping). "Cleaning" old Plasticell is a matter of having or borrowing a solar wax melter. "Re-waxing" is not really required. If you spray the bare plastic with some sugar water or anise oil, the bees will drawn it out just fine. If you really feel you MUST re-wax plastic, one can simply melt some wax in a (dead level) half-sheet baking tray floating in a full sheet baking tray filled with water to make a very flat "double boiler", and dip the plastic into the hot wax. While this takes all four burners of a typical stove to get an even heat over such a wide surface area, each burner can be on "low". (Insert usual warnings here about kitchens being the worst place to attempt any beekeeping task, and the hazards associated with angering one's significant other by [mis]using their cherished baking trays.) Speaking of full-sheet baking trays, they also make great "coasters" for stacks of supers, as they catch all the drips of honey, and can be hosed off with ease. Used, from a restaurant supply house, I got a dozen of them for a buck each. And unlike wired wax foundation, plastic is POSSIBLE to clean. Wired wax foundation, when placed into a solar melter will yield wires coated with charred material that must be cleaned by hand to avoid ending up with supers of "Bar-B-Q Flavored" honey and/or enough ash to make one's "Italian" bees look like Carniolans. (The wires apparently get much hotter than the wood, which makes sense.) > There is obviously a case for artificial foundation in professional > beekeeping at the industrial scale - but with only 4 colonies? Sure - it is called "convenience" and "ease of use". Check out the latest "trend" in bee supplies, where beekeepers are buying pre-assembled woodenware and frames. This assembly does not come free, so it is clear the hobby beekeepers are willing to pay extra to save some time and trouble. The "best" thing about products like Plasticell is their durability in an extractor. Even if an old frame comes apart (hey, it can happen at 600 RPM!) the frame can be removed and repaired, or the comb inserted into another frame, and one has, at worst, some damaged drawn comb for the bees to repair. > Renewing brood combs yearly keeps disease down. You renew ALL your brood combs EVERY year? That seems just a tad excessive. We renew on a 5-year cycle, (using queen-color thumbtacks on each frame to track the age of each comb). Best of all, the tiny amount of wax on Plasticell is MUCH less than the amount of wax required for foundation, which means we can expect far fewer problems from any wax contaminated with PDB, miticides, et al. As has been noted on this list, the recycling of wax into foundation has caused ever-higher levels of contamination of all but "cut comb thin surplus" foundation, intended to be drawn into edible comb, and made only from "cappings wax". Clearly, for "cut comb" or "Ross Rounds", one needs wax foundation, but neither of these cases require wiring, which is the complicated and tedious part. jim (who asks people who use pure wax foundation "Wire you using that?") :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::