<<Huestis, With all due respect, I wonder if you read the whole message, including this part: >The phenotype of the Dark honeybee has not substantially changed, >neither in the last millenium in Europe nor by transplantation to >the southern hemisphere (Tasmania and New Zealand) during the last >150 years. -- from "The Dark European Honey Bee" by Friedrich >Ruttner, 1990 Ruttner is saying that *he measured* bees found preserved from a thousand years ago, bees preserved from 150 years ago, and from today, and they are not different in size. If there was a substantial downsizing in the past 100 years *don't you think he would have mentioned it?* Why would ne not mention it? And please, I never said that bees were made bigger by foundation. I was pointing to the fact the Apis mellifera mellifera, having evolved in cold climates, has always been a fairly big bee, compared to African and Asian types. (Note: Not all temperate bees are bigger, not all non European bees are smaller. There are exceptions.) pb>> Ruttner didn't measure complete bees from 1000 years ago; only fragments were found. Complete specimens exist from the mid-18th Century. Unfortunately, Ruttner doesn't give complete measurements, and concentrates on wing morphology. The one thing which can be said with certainty with regard to size is that the wing size has remained unchanged for a thousand years. In order to settle this one finally, someone would probably need to re-examine the historical specimens, and take new measurements. First, however, we'd need to agree on which were the essential measurements to take, and settle on ones which would remain unchanged in a long-dried specimen, and which could be taken without damaging the precious remains. Regards, Robert Brenchley [log in to unmask] Birmingham UK