Deryk Barker: >I believe RVW acknowledged using Beethoven 5 as the structural model for >his 4th symphony. He also admitted to "cribbing" the opening chord from the finale of Beethoven's 9th. >Incidentally, although that 4-note theme has sometimes mistaken for BACH, >it's actually BAHB. Actually, that theme undergoes many transformations, one of which is BACH, which appears (according to my OUP full score) as early as measures 3-4: Db-C-Eb-D, or B-A-C-H transposed up a minor 3rd. (For more on the thematic development in the VW 4th, see my Listener's Guide at: http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/v-w/v-wsymoverview.html ) Steve Schwartz