Aaron J Rabushka <[log in to unmask]> enters a sheer polish: >I've also heard Beethoven credited with introducing the contrabassoon into >the symphony orchestra with his fifth symphony. Has this been changed? (As >with opera orchestras, the wind serenade orchestras that often included >contrabassoons constitute a different phenomenon.) Yes! I think Mr. Sutton in the original post, which I dug up, just mixed up the kontrabassoons with trombones, because piccolo and kontrabassoon were the two new instruments in Beethoven 5. Mats Norrman [log in to unmask]