Alex Renwick <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >Assuming the answer is (c), I offer the following comments. It is >so obvious that there is a high correlation between intelligence and a >musician, composer or player, that it hardly bears saying. There may be >the odd dunce playing in symphony orchestras but surely Bach, Haydn and >Mozart were among the geniuses of their era (as was Barbara Tuchman and >is William Manchester of our own). The weak point in your message is: how do you define intelligence? If this is defined with the ability to solve logical problems (a.k.a what you measure with a classic IQ-test) you will find Beethoven at IQ 160, Mozart and J.S Bach at IQ 165, Haendel at IQ 170 (estimated numbers from Mensas site), and many others at very high - Wagner had a great capacity for instance - BUT: the ability to solve logical problems is not the only intelligence you use when you compose music! Composing music is a complex process which take many working processes of the brain in use. So, high intelligence doesn't necessarily allow you to be a good composer (implied that you practise much)! 165 is a high IQ, but there must on earth be many who has that IQ, and there were few people in world history that became great composers. Think also of the Idiot Savants!! And that is exactly the point of issue! Consider sportsmen for seeing my point; they have made physical tests with top sportsmen, and these tests clearly show that it is not those who get the best results in physical test, i.e those who hence should get the best results in competitions, who become the winners in competitions. It is because there are more factors involved than just physical strength. Some would say it sits in the soul. So it is with great composers (and many other genres as well). I can say that most of the great composers had something more than just pure musical talent; they had a "genial psyche", and a part of that is that they were very egoistic. That is why it is so lousy to accuse just Ricky Wagner for being a jerk - most of the great composers were - read about the composers and you will find that many of them were jerks too from time to time, sometimes you will have to read between the lines though, as many biographers love their subject for writing. Beethoven was thought to be a misanthrop, so was DeBussy, Brahms said many lousy things about women and Wagner for instance, Haydn wasn't that charming "Papa Haydn" as he is classically described to be, Haendel used very lousy methods against performers and others to get his will through, Sjostakovitj said the truth always, how cruel the truth ever was, Janacek, Tjajkovskij, Mahler were often aggressive. At closer study you will find that also compsoers who traditionally are described as socially talented, fall into this jerkcathegory too; there are many eyewuithnesses describing Mendelssohns snottiness, and Mozart didn't think his wife to live up to his ideal of a woman, therefore he walked around telling people she was "nothing but a slut". I could go on for long time. My point is that most of composers had a great ego, meanwhile, or probably thanks to that, they had a will to develop themselves and magnetic personalities, and a good sence for impress people, make commercial for themselves, to build up an image about themselves. They were in other words, the schamans of our time. But to see this more than reading just the classic biographies are needed. Read Bruckners or other peoples letters describing him for example; and you will see that Bruckner wasn't that ankward weirdo he is said to be (at least not in that way), and he seduced many women too.:-) The great composers can, to conclude, thank their psyche rather than their IQ for what they were. They had the right social skill, meanwhile being great egos. There is so a difference in the psyche of just plain people and genial people. Of course most of the great composers had an IQ not to be ashamed of, but that has as much to do with their other abilities as with their musical talent. Idiot Savants, then, can have good musical talent, and there have been Idiot Savants who composed wonderful music, but they came on short in too many other fields, socially. There has never been an idiot savant who knew how to sell himself. Therefore they came on short as composers as well. >In addition, musicians, as a group, are among the most articulate persons >one will find. As I tried to say above. Verbal talent is very important social talent. Mats Norrman [log in to unmask]