I do hope my recent post about art vs. craft does not start a fire storm of criticism. I was trying to separate music in to two categories 1) music where the composer hoped to stir emotions in the listener and those where the composer was experimenting with musical ideas which may or may not stir emotion in the listener, but the composer did not necessarily have that intent. Chopin's etudes are a good example of the 2nd type, although several are quite emotional. His 2nd movementt of the Fmin concerto is a good example of the 1st. I was extreamly careful to allow craft to be great music requiring genius to produce - just having no emotional intent. (I do this although my own feelings are that all music stirs some emotion and that this was chiefly the intent of the great composers, and this is why they are, in fact, called great.) Then why divide music at all? Well we do. There's classical vs. rock, in classical there's baroque vs romantic, there's early Beethoven vs. late Beethoven, etc. This is simple another dimension for looking at it. I am now re-reading the letters of Beethoven, hoping his words will shed some light on this subject, at least as regards HIS music. I will keep the list informed about my findings. So far I have found this interesting comment that gives some insight into how he percieved music. Its about a sonata that he was asked to write. To Capellmeister HOFMEISTER, Leipzig Vienna, April 8, 1802 Gentlemen, are you then all possessed of the devil, to propose me to write such a sonata. At the time revolution fever that would have been all very well, but now, as everything is seeking to return to the beated track - and the Concordant drawn up between Buonaparte [sic] and the Pope - a sonata of this kind? If only it were a Missa pro Sancta Maria a tre voci, or a Vesper, etc, then I would at once take pencil in hand, and with great pound notes [Pfundnoten] write down a Credo in unum, but, good heavens, such a Sonata in these newly commencing Christian times - hoho- leave me out of it, nothing will come of it. Is this program music he is refferring to?. What could the specifications for the sonata have been that provoked this response. What "kind" of sonata would not "fit" with the times? Any thoughts? Bill Pirkle