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BEE-L  October 2000, Week 3

BEE-L October 2000, Week 3

Subject:

Re: PMS

From:

Aaron Morris <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:37:15 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (138 lines)

Hi Mike,

Given your descriptions, I'd be careful of the conclusions you draw.
Please,
this is not meant as a criticism, just an observation.  You are using
treatments
and making later conclusions without any post treatment tests.  You did this

in August last year, you noticed that in Feb/March of this year, followed up
with
something else in June and then reached a lot of conclusions in October.
The
conclusions you are making now are at best, SWAGs (Scientific Wild Assed
Guesses).
Without having post treatment testing to get a clear picture of the results
or the
treatments, immediately after the treatments, you simply cannot make valid
statements
as to the treatments' effectiveness.

A conclusion of Apistan resistance can only be valid if you test for varroa
immediately after using Apistan.  If you use Apistan for a week and then do
an ether
roll or sugar shake (or some other diagnostic testing) and still find high
levels of
live mites, ONLY then can validly conclude you have Apistan-resistant mites.
If you
use Apistan in the fall and notice you have high levels of varroa the
following summer,
all you can validly conclude is you have high levels of varroa that summer,
nothing more.

> My first hive was noticed in early June, again i wasn't
> sure it was PMS.
PMS is a confusing condition to diagnose.  Its symptoms can look like and
may actually
be some or many other maladies.  The temptation to cry PMS is hard to avoid
these days,
PMS is in vogue and it's easy to classify problems as PMS when they make in
fact be
something else, like AFB or deformed wing virus or any of a number of other
diseases that
beekeepers used to look hard for, before the days that everything could
easily be
explained by deciding one has PMS.  A guess without conclusive tests is just
a guess.

> checked all hives in early july and all appeared fine.
How did you check?  There are many ways including visual examination, pulled
drone brood,
ether roll, sugar shake and sticky boards.  In a previous year I have looked
at my bees (visual examination) and concluded they look good only to have
them crash by September.  Sounds
as though you may have repeated my blunder.  I look harder now.

> went to put on apistan in mid august and one entire
> apiary of 8 hives had crashed, esitimate of 10-20% of my
> other hives also showed PMS but not as bad.
Obviously, hints of PMS in early June followed by treatments in mid-August
was too late.
Suspicions on PMS in June should have been confirmed or allayed in June.
I'm not
lecturing here, I'm sharing blunders I have made in my beekeeping past.
Been there,
done that.

> used checkmite on the 8 hives and used apistan on the rest and am
> following up with formic acid on the ones that i used apistan on.
This follow up with formic will cloud any conclusions you will make.  Will
it be the
Apistan or formic or the combination or the two that impacted the results?
How will
you know?

> since last year was classified as a low mite year by the bee inspector in
mass, I
> suspect that the mites are getting/or are restistent to apistan, I'll
> definetly know in the spring by the # of hives I lose.
No you will not.  Perhaps you will lose hives to winter conditions.  Perhaps
you
will lose hives for other reasons.  Hopefully you will find your bees better
than
you anticipate.  There are many more variables than you seem to be
considering.
You may conclude that you have Apistan resistant mites, but there may be
lots going
on in your hives that you are dismissing.  Next spring you'll have to
consider if the
checkmited hives were the same as the Apistan/formic hives?  Same strength?

Same breed/race?  Same location and exposure?  It's a multi-variable puzzle
we beekeepers
have and it's hard to arrive at the REAL solution.  It's easy to be in vogue
and settle
on PMS and Apistan resistance.  Everyone should read Andy's epistle, "Sad,
Mad, Bad Bees".
I'm not sure if I have the title correct, it wasn't the best written
document ever authored,
but Andy knew his bees and he warned about jumping on the diagnosis du jour
rather than
doing sound beekeeping.  God bless 'im!

> Since Formic acid didn't seem to do
> anything when treated in the spring,
Well, WHY didn't formic do anything in the spring?  What is the basis of
your statement?
Perhaps formic worked very well in the spring and your bees picked up a
subsequent
infestation or reinfestation from another source.  I have been VERY
impressed with the
formic induced mite fall I am seeing in my hives this fall.  I wish Bob
Stevens the
best of luck getting the kinks out.  If indeed formic did nothing for you in
the spring,
might you be able to offer any SWAGs as to why?  Were your gel packs the
initial off-spec
run?  Might there have been something about your application methods?
Perhaps formic is more effective in fall than spring.

> seems to me that the only alternative left
> is to use check mite?
It is this statement that inspired me to write.  There are plenty of
alternatives.  First,
better diagnosing for better conclusions.  Faster action for suspected
problems.  IPM
management, including screened bottom boards coupled with smoke that knocks
mites down
(tobacco for instance), drone trapping, queen confinement and splits.  And
don't be too
hasty to dismiss formic, it's been VERY GOOD for me, perhaps the most
promising product yet.
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly beekeepers embrace coumaphos and
remain silent, not
protesting the government imposed hurdles keeping us from using such a
promising product.

Aaron Morris - thinking hives need coumaphos like fish need bicycles!

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