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This has been a really great discussion to 'listen' in on. I think the  
idea of "only the evidence", what is a fact versus a hunch or
just an accepted norm within a community of researchers, is not as  
clearly recognizable as we think. Because in part, it is the
community of practice that decides what to accept as a fact and what  
not to. I realized at some point that I did think about concepts
like facts or evidence as unproblematic, as easy to recognize, almost  
as if they were tagged somehow. "Oh, ok, that has a fact tag,
it must be a fact." Unfortunately, they aren't tagged, except by being  
accepted/rejected by some majority of researchers, or one big
name in a field. But there is no other way to do science. It has to be  
culturally influenced because humans do it. It is intrinsically
subjective, based on language, and on definitions that humans have set  
up.

I think this issue makes the evolution/creationism (and other such)  
debate more subtle. Not in the sense that I believe in creationism,
but that simple arguments about evolution being unbiased (and  
therefore science) don't work so well. I don't think this is a bad  
thing -
I often feel like the debate is stuck at a very 5th grader level "yes  
it is!" "no it isn't" "is so!" "is not!", and wish there were more  
sophisticated
discussion.

In addition to the Kuhn, I skimmed through Bruno and Latour's book  
"Laboratory Life: The Construction of Scientific Facts" for a class in  
science teaching methods (unfortunately I could only sit in on the  
class). They are sociologists, and were looking at the sociology of  
the workings of a biology lab. And they brought up some great points  
about how science works - what makes a fact, how equipment can be used  
to measure but in some ways create data, etc. I'm still working  
through this one in my head.

Anyway, thanks for getting me thinking about these issues again!

Audra Baleisis
(for now independent science education consultant, in Switzerland)


On Jun 10, 2009, at 10:46 PM, Tom Nielsen wrote:

> ISEN-ASTC-L is a service of the Association of Science-Technology  
> Centers
> Incorporated, a worldwide network of science museums and related  
> institutions.
> *****************************************************************************
>
> Chuck,
>
> Granted that scientists inevitably bring bias to their work --  yet  
> isn't the goal of their effort to see only the evidence and recant  
> a  hypotheses when it is disproved?  Science, then to me seems the  
> antidote  to bias.  But the "differing value" you mention have me  
> worried - what might they be? A can of worms, or a box of Pandora's,  
> for sure.  Don't Creationists  and climate change deniers ask for  
> "the opportunity to challenge ... another's work" based not on  
> evidence but on differing values?
>
> Tom Nielsen
> The Exhibit Guys
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Chuck Howarth wrote:
>
>> ISEN-ASTC-L is a service of the Association of Science-Technology  
>> Centers
>> Incorporated, a worldwide network of science museums and related  
>> institutions.
>> *****************************************************************************
>>
>> Adding to Jeff's comments, many if not most of Stephen Jay Gould's  
>> essays address cultural biases in science.  For example, 19th  
>> century scientists spent a good bit of time documenting the ways in  
>> which, in their view, some races were superior to others.  They  
>> brought that racist perspective with them to their science, and it  
>> guided their work.  Gould cites many other similar examples from  
>> many different periods of history.
>>
>> Do scientists today bring biases to their  work?  Of course!  But  
>> other scientists with differing values and biases have the  
>> opportunity to challenge them.   Which suggests that science works  
>> best when people of all cultures and both genders participate and  
>> have the opportunity to challenge one another's work.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wayne, you write:
>>>
>>> "That is, science does not have a cultural basis."
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if we're not confusing phenomena with the practice  
>>> of science.  I would suggest science clearly has a cultural  
>>> basis.  Without such a foundation, there would have been no  
>>> development of an expert culture, of words, of symbols, of  
>>> methodology, etc.  The phrase "Natural Philosophy," at least as it  
>>> pertains to the history of euro-centric science, comes to mind.   
>>> Science and culture have always been mixed - cultural perspective  
>>> has time and again limited the vision of practicing scientists.
>>>
>>> ***********************************************************************
>> Chuck Howarth
>> Gyroscope, Inc.
>> 283 Fourth Street, Suite 201
>> Oakland, CA  94607
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 510-986-0111
>>
>> http://www.gyroscopeinc.com
>>
>> Check out our blog!
>> http://museums-now.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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