Hi Bob,
In Alan Brown's translation of Juan Crespi's 1769 field journal Brown
translates the following:
Esta canada es de muchissima frondosidad y de mucha cienega mui verde de
carrizos, tules y ostros muchos yerbajes, que le vimos una buena sanja con
mui buena agua que corrida algo entre los mucos matorrales que tenia.
as follows:
"This is a vastly lush hollow, having a great deal of swamp, very green
with reed- grass, tule-rushes, an many other kinds of plants, where we saw
a good-sized channel with very good water with a bit of a flow, there among
the many weeds" (Crespi 2001:358-359).
Brown translates the term reed(s) as carizzas in several other points of
encounter during Crespi's journey through California. Thus this is one use
of the term that seems to differentiate cat-tails(?) (Typha sp.) from
bull-rushes or tules (Scirpus sp.). In this instance Phragmites does not
seem to be identified.
Tom
Crespi, Juan
2001 A Description of Distant Roads. Original Journals of the First
Expedition into California, 1769-
1770, edited and Translated by A. Brown. San Diego State
University Press, San Diego.
At 10/10/2006 08:12 PM, you wrote:
>Thank you for the replies ... I KNOW that the Spanish word "carrizo"
>exists in numerous placenames across the whole southwest, but what I'm
>asking is when the Spanish were looking at & naming things "carrizo" was
>it the phragmites australis reed, specifically, that they were referring
>to in SoCal ... or could it have been some other (simiar ?) reed?
>
>Bob Skiles
>~~~~~~~~~~
>Yes, reason has been a part of organized religion, ever since two nudists
>took dietary advice from a talking snake. -- Jon Stewart
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gerald Carbiener" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:18 PM
>Subject: Re: carrizo = phragmites in SoCal?
>
>
> >
> > And the Carrizo Plain in San Luis Obispo County.
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 10/10/2006 7:07:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> > [log in to unmask] writes:
> >
> > Yes Virginia, uh, I mean Bob...such reeds are known to have grown...and
> > still are growing (I presume) in S. CA.
> > http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-taxon=Phragmites
> > %20australis&ttime=1160531280
> >
> > There's a Carrizo Gorge, Carrizob Badlands, Carrizo Creek (& Valley),
> > etc. in San Diego/Imperial counties.
> >
> > (apparently Carrizozo, NM got its name for the abundance of such reeds
> > in that area)
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGY [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> >>Behalf Of Bob Skiles
> >>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:17 PM
> >>To: [log in to unmask]
> >>Subject: carrizo = phragmites in SoCal?
> >>
> >>... the term "carrizo" in the quotation below (and as used by
> >>the Spanish chroniclers in western Texas) referred to the
> >>phragmites australis reed ...
> >>
> >>i've seen the word "carrizo" used by early Spanish chroniclers
> >>referring to source material for the cane arrows made by the
> >>Indians in the area of the southern California missions, too,
> >>which clearly (by contextual descriptions of the arrows)
> >>refers to some type of cane or reed, but I'm not sure it
> >>referred to phragmites ... did phragmites australis (or
> >>communis) grow along streams in southern California?
> >>
> >>Bob Skiles
> >>
> >>
> >>> In James L. Haley's <italic>Apaches: A History and Culture Portrait
> >>> (</italic>University of Oklahoma Press, 1997), the author says the
> >>> Apache of New Mexico and west Texas made two kinds of
> >>arrows, hardwood or cane.
> >>> Hardwoods were "preferably mountain mahogany, Apache plume, or
> >>> mulberry, and some Chiricahuas became known for arrows of
> >>desert broom
> >>> (<italic>Baccharis sarothroides</italic>)." (p. 109) Cane
> >>arrows were
> >>> made from carrizo, and included a hardwood foreshaft four to six
> >>> inches long.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>~~~
> >>"Smithers! Get that bedlamite to an alienist." ~ C. Monty Burns
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
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