The fly in the ointment of this discussion is that there are two kinds of 
cane commonly called "carrizo," both of which are known to grow in Southern 
California.  These are the comparatively thin reed, Phragmites australis 
(Cav.) Steud [ = P. communis Trin], and the so-called "giant reed," Arundo 
donax.  See Thomas H. Kearney, Robert H. Peebles, et al, "Arizona Flora" 
(Berkeley, Los Angeles, London: University of California Press, 1960; p. 
89), and, for ethnobotanical details, Richard S. Felger and Mary Beck Moser, 
"People of the Desert and Sea" (Tucson: The University of Arizona Press, 
1985; pp. 305-07, 309-15).
    Felger goes with "australis" rather than "communis," and I suspect his 
is the more up-to-date and currently correct nomenclature for the ordinary 
reed.
    Bunny Fontana


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas Wheeler" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: carrizo = phragmites in SoCal?


> Hi Bob,
>
> In Alan Brown's translation of Juan Crespi's 1769 field journal Brown 
> translates the following:
> Esta canada es de muchissima frondosidad y de mucha cienega mui verde de 
> carrizos, tules y ostros muchos yerbajes, que le vimos una buena sanja con 
> mui buena agua que corrida algo entre los mucos matorrales que tenia.
> as follows:
> "This is a vastly lush hollow, having a great deal of swamp, very green 
> with reed- grass, tule-rushes, an many other kinds of plants, where we saw 
> a good-sized channel with very good water with a bit of a flow, there 
> among the many weeds" (Crespi 2001:358-359).
>
> Brown translates the term reed(s) as carizzas in several other points of 
> encounter during Crespi's journey through California. Thus this is one use 
> of the term that seems to differentiate cat-tails(?) (Typha sp.) from 
> bull-rushes or tules (Scirpus sp.). In this instance Phragmites does not 
> seem to be identified.
>
> Tom
>
> Crespi, Juan
>    2001  A Description of Distant Roads. Original Journals of the First 
> Expedition into California, 1769-
>              1770, edited and Translated by A. Brown. San Diego State 
> University Press, San Diego.
>
>
>
>
> At 10/10/2006  08:12 PM, you wrote:
>>Thank you for the replies ... I KNOW that the Spanish word "carrizo" 
>>exists in numerous placenames across the whole southwest, but what I'm 
>>asking is when the Spanish were looking at & naming things "carrizo" was 
>>it the phragmites australis reed, specifically, that they were referring 
>>to in SoCal ... or could it have been some other (simiar ?) reed?
>>
>>Bob Skiles
>>~~~~~~~~~~
>>Yes, reason has been a part of organized religion, ever since two nudists 
>>took dietary advice from a talking snake. -- Jon Stewart
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Gerald Carbiener" <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:18 PM
>>Subject: Re: carrizo = phragmites in SoCal?
>>
>>
>> >
>> > And the Carrizo  Plain in San Luis Obispo County.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In a message dated 10/10/2006 7:07:29 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>> > [log in to unmask] writes:
>> >
>> > Yes  Virginia, uh, I mean Bob...such reeds are known to have 
>> > grown...and
>> > still  are growing (I presume) in S.  CA.
>> > http://www.calflora.org/cgi-bin/species_query.cgi?where-taxon=Phragmites
>> > %20australis&ttime=1160531280
>> >
>> > There's  a Carrizo Gorge, Carrizob Badlands, Carrizo Creek (& Valley),
>> > etc. in  San Diego/Imperial counties.
>> >
>> > (apparently Carrizozo, NM got its name for  the abundance of such reeds
>> > in that area)
>> >
>> >>-----Original  Message-----
>> >>From: HISTORICAL ARCHAEOLOGY [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> >>Behalf Of Bob Skiles
>> >>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 4:17  PM
>> >>To: [log in to unmask]
>> >>Subject: carrizo = phragmites in  SoCal?
>> >>
>> >>... the term "carrizo" in the quotation below (and as  used by
>> >>the Spanish chroniclers in western Texas) referred to the
>> >>phragmites australis reed ...
>> >>
>> >>i've seen the word  "carrizo" used by early Spanish chroniclers
>> >>referring to source  material for the cane arrows made by the
>> >>Indians in the area of the  southern California missions, too,
>> >>which clearly (by contextual  descriptions of the arrows)
>> >>refers to some type of cane or reed, but  I'm not sure it
>> >>referred to phragmites ... did phragmites australis  (or
>> >>communis) grow along streams in southern  California?
>> >>
>> >>Bob Skiles
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> In James L.  Haley's <italic>Apaches: A History and Culture Portrait
>> >>>  (</italic>University of Oklahoma Press, 1997), the author says the
>> >>> Apache of New Mexico and west Texas made two kinds of
>> >>arrows, hardwood or cane.
>> >>> Hardwoods were "preferably  mountain mahogany, Apache plume, or
>> >>> mulberry, and some  Chiricahuas became known for arrows of
>> >>desert broom
>> >>>  (<italic>Baccharis sarothroides</italic>)." (p. 109)  Cane
>> >>arrows were
>> >>> made from carrizo, and included a hardwood  foreshaft four to six
>> >>> inches  long.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>~~~
>> >>"Smithers! Get that  bedlamite to an alienist." ~ C. Monty Burns
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>