[log in to unmask] writes:

>The innovation is that the piece is no longer determined by dance and song
>forms or dance and song phrasing.  There's a plasticity of both rhythm and
>form, to that point unknown, which later composers took off from.

I would have to agree with that except that the innovation you speak of
is still not really the result of inventiveness but rather the result of
LvB's style.  I guess I should have clarified that I was speaking more
about creating "tangible" things.  Actually, I think I am beginning to
confuse myself(HA!).  Beethoven's sonata movements are not really unlike
Haydn's or other earlier greats' in my opinion.  They just differ in the
way Beethoven puts the feelings and disposition out there for everyone to
see.  As far as the plasticity of form is concerned I feel that it really
is just a greater development than an invention/innovation.  It just seems
more an aspect of his style than something he conciously "invented".  This
is, of course, just my opinion and in the greater scheme of things I
suppose it just falls in with everyone else's!

--Wes Crone