Bob Draper <[log in to unmask]> replies to me:

>Mats Norrman  replies to me:
>
>>Mozart and Mendelssohn were both very socially talented agreed, but I can't
>>see how this can make as general rule that they became great composers just
>>out of that.  Beethoven was not especially socially talented, but he did
>>became a great composer.
>
>Yes, but that underlines the fundamental point I am making.
>What makes Beethoven's music enjoyable to listen to dispite the occassional
>rough edge, is that it has raw emotion.  Just as with Haydn this emotion
>has come from the struggle within to achieve.

You talk AllanPettersson-talk!  He surely wanted to be considered the
greatest of all composers, as he in his own opinion had had to fight most
for it, with parents that beated him when he played his viola, not even
to mention any support, and as adult he got Rheumathoid Artritis [sp?].
Surely he had to fight!

No, I am sure Mozart also had to struggle, how talented he ever were.

>I actually do find Mendelssohn's music often attractive.  If we are
>going to award the accolade "child genius" then he's the man who should
>get it.  But there is massive evidence of influence in a lot of his music
>particularly the string symphonies.  The influence is largely Haydn and
>Beethoven but one finds Mozart there as well.

I completely and totally agree that there are influences of other composers
in Mendelssohn. There are windows in the monads that we people are, after
all [Bless you Leibniz!]! But this is very different from copying other
composers styles which you said Mendelssohn was doomed to in your earlier
post!

>Hence we have Haydn as largely self-taught and from here his innovation
>springs.  As I explained in my original post, this is natural enough
>when a child is pushed forward in this way by well-meaning parents.

 [Apologizes to Mr. Draper for changing orders on the quotation, but I have
a point with it.] True Haydn wasn't pushed in the same way as Mozart, and
when one see who developed what [not in the musical pieces, please], Haydn
was the more innovative, and this way of thinking can spring from not
having been pushed too much.  Many talents are doomed to fail just because
they are pushed in the wrong way.  Evgenij Kissin is a good technican at
the keyboard, but he is fundamentally lacking in emotion: A great talent
who is not developing his mind as he has been pushed too hard by his
parents.  Possibly it is with musicians as with birds you hold in your
hands, as the poet said: "If you don't hold them hard enough, they will
fly, but if you hold them too hard they will die".  Etc.  Just my babbling.

But Mozart was certainly pushed by his father, and he became a great
composer, although he didn't invent a new symphony form.  But Haydn was
born in 1732, Mozart in 1756, and if their birthdates had been the reversed
 [or how to say it], maybe Mozart had invented the sonata form? Who will
know that? But this raises the issue if a talent only can find success if
the time is ready for it.  Maybe the talent has just luck: to be in right
place at the right time, and maybe have some sort of insight in what can be
done.  I study the historyprocess.  I have recently studied the Timur Lenk
case.  Timur Lenk (1336-1405) was the last Mongolconqueror.  With start in
his capitol of Samarkand with a strong, welltrained army he attacked the
relatively strong kings in Persia, India...he oppressed them, but due to
their rioting the empire collapsed shortly after hios death.  This when he
could have made his way into central Asia, where a political vacuum had
occurred at this time.  He had easily been able to create a great empire
that way, with out wasting his resources, and he could have created a
permanent kingdom.  As it was he was soon forgotten as one halfhearted
conquereor anmong many.  See there a bad example on being in time and
place, and talent.  But to return this into Classical Music: Haydn sat in
Vienna, the cultural metropol, where he could manage the legacy after Bach.
What about if he had been born in London? [Or the newly founded city of
Vladivostok?] Or what about if he had been born 20 years later? Schubert
set Goethes texts to music, and stepped in the breach of Romanticism in
Music.  Wasn't that just because he lived in the right time and breathed
the moods [Stimmungen] of the time? if Schubert never had lived, what had
happened? Or Schoenberg: he made a discovery which "surely will guarantee
the German musics dominion for the coming 100 years? If the Schoenberg had
been born in Amazonas, had this innovators name been Alban Berg? or Anton
Webern? Or somebody else?

>>No. Haydn did know composition from early age, but in his youth he wasn't
>>employed as composer, and most probably he had use the time to earn his
>>bread in other ways than composition.
>
>(Dave also mentioned this point and referred me to HC R-L) My main source
>is Rosemary Hughes book in the master musicians series.  Referring to
>Haydn's time at St Stephens she says "Of teaching in musical theory, he
>received hardly any".  She goes on to say that Reutter who was in charge
>"couldn't be bothered to give lessons but encourgaged Haydn to arrange
>variations on the church music".  ...

And you talk about societys need for heroes...I think this could be an
example on just that. Isn't a good way to paint a picture of a hero, right
to tell how poor he was [economically], and how badly treated he was, and
...especially in his youth! And how he was striving and working, and won
reputation and glory through own hard work ["per aspera ad astra!" quoth
Ovid], statring with two empty hands! Allan Pettersson is another good
example. I would be veryu interested in knowing who paid for his expensive
musical education, if he was as poor as he claimed! But much is always
depending on the goggles you have on your nose. Compare that southeners
 [what was his name again?] biography on Abraham Lincoln, and compare it
with Carl Sandburgs. One cannot believe they are talking about the same
person, and obviously thay had, at least in part, used the same sources.

>Dave also reminded us of the famous quote that Haydn made about Mozart to
>his father that his son was the greatest composer on earth etc.
>
>This is anecdotal but I would not be surprised if Haydn said it in support
>of his friend.  However, it is a familiar chestnut.  What a pity that we
>aren't reminded as often of the things that Mozart said about Haydn for
>instance: "No one can do it all to make us laugh to make us cry, no one
>that is except Haydn" and to the composer Leopold Kozeluch: "Even if they
>melted us together there still would not be enough to make a Haydn"

But it is still not the objective truth, because there is no objective
truth.  Many composers talked about other composers, and it is everything
different opinions.

Haydn and Mozart were good friends, and surely they founded a club of
mutual admiration.  I am a member of such clubs too...

Mats Norrman
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http://www.fortunecity.de/kraftwerk/metallica/84/c.html