It is a difficult distinction to make, and it is certainly more of a
continuum than a sharp break between the two.  There are a significant
number of people who love Wagner and Puccini who think that Sullivan and
Offenbach are frivolous; there are others who love Sullivan and Offenbach
and find Verdi and Puccini dull; and, to go the other way, there are people
who love Rogers & Hammerstein, but whom Rossini gives a headache.  Me--I
like them all, but I don't lump them all together except at the most basic
level.

Christopher Webber writes:

> Still ...  taken as a job lot Bruce's criteria, however carefully
>formulated, clearly don't hold water when even "The Merry Widow" failed
>his tests in at least three areas!

Let's see--'Widow' certainly deals with ordinary people in ordinary
life-situations (minor diplomatic functionaries, shirt-tail royalty, the
relict of a wealthy businessman--put them next to the characters in [say]
TURANDOT or AIDA); pokes fun at both the conventions of oper(etta) and the
foibles of contemporary society; it has tunes hummable or whistleable by
persons of minimal musical sophistication; it has numbers which are
attemptable by amateur singers [although not without ones which should be
left to professionals]; it has a great deal of spoken dialogue.  I think
it meets my criteria.

He adds:

>I've been spending some time recently ploughing through earnest critical
>essays trying to define not only zarzuela, but also its not so subtly
>different flavours (genero chico, genero grande, revista, operone etc.
>etc.) I can honestly say that not one of these attempts has cast so much
>as one stimulating ray of light on one single zarzuela of my acquaintance
>at least.

I don't know very much about zarzuela; most of my exposure has been
in individual songs exerpted in recitals.  I was told "the Germans say
'singspiel', the French 'opera comique,' the English 'ballad opera' or
'operetta'--and the Spanish say 'zarzuela' or 'tonadilla'.  Apparently it
is a great deal more complicated.  Can you suggest books or recordings?

>Great stage works simply can't be pigeon-holed: that's what makes
>them great.  And in its way "The Mikado" is every bit as great as "Madam
>Butterfly"

Yes--for what it is.  But were someone to go into the theatre thinking,
"'Mikado--opera, Japanese setting; must be like 'Butterfly'"--his ears
and mind prepared for a similar experience to 'Butterfly', he'd be
disappointed.  He'd think 'Mikado' silly and a wasted evening.  Conversely,
had he gone into 'Butterfly' thinking, "Japanese-setting, opera; ah!  Like
'Mikado'," he'd probably be bored to tears or shocked to his foundations.

On the other hand, if we have 'Mikado' clearly labled as 'operetta', he'd
be prepared for catchy tunes, a light plot with jokes and satire, lots of
spoken dialog; conversely, with 'Butterfly' labled as 'opera' he'd go in
expecting to be put through an emotional wringer, to be exposed to grand
passions, and to hear the human voice do things one would have believed
impossible.  In either case, he'd know what kind of experience he can
anticipate, and be able to *evaluate it by it's own merits*, for what it
is, rather than complain about what it is not.

Mind you, sometimes it is good to have one's horizons broadened a bit.
That's probably what the intermediate types are good for.  A serious-minded
person, who thinks that operetta is silly and below his consideration, or
someone who thinks that grand opera is boring, might find a 'borderline'
work something to (on the one hand) loosen him up and (on the other)
something to inspire as well as entertain.

>Artistic differences? None at all.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.  I say, "[Johann] Strauss
is wonderful; Wagner is wonderful.  But they are hardly pages out of the
same book." In another context, someone compared Stephen Foster with Franz
Schubert.  Both wrote lyrical pieces for solo voice and piano.  Foster was
very good at what he did; Schubert was very good at what he did.  I like
them both.  But I don't say that they are 'the same thing,' any more than
I would say that Victor Herbert and Puccini are 'the same thing'.

"Bruce Alan Wilson" <[log in to unmask]>