Hello Brian and list,

I'd like to address a lot of the specifics you, Brian, brought up, but I 
don't want to distract from the bigger picture.  As I see it, most of your 
arguments are defending $20-$40/lb honey producers (like the lawyer moved 
to Hawaii that you provided the link about) on the grounds that the 
conventional agricultural/food system is messed up.  If we ignore any third 
options, overlook the lack of integrity of your recommended alternative, 
and make the entire question a simple yes-no referendum on the conventional 
system, then you'd have a case.  So before we get too distracted with the 
evils of our current system, I want to be clear what I'm saying: one, there 
are other options besides conventional commodity honey that are at least as 
viable as $20-$40/lb honey from the far reaches of civilization; and two, 
$20-$40/lb honey is in no way remotely "sustainable".

>So I gather you think this guy is ripping people off and making a fortune 
to boot?

Seems exceedingly obvious to me that the guy is ripping people off.  I'm 
sure you agree, at least implicitly, because I'm sure you don't buy $20/lb 
green beans, $40/gallon milk, and $60/lb pork, or do you?

>Maybe you like the Walmartization of the organic industry better.......

Better than what?  Than the Starbucksization?  Not much of a choice.

>Drawing my thoughts from Micheal Pollans new book the Omnivores Dilema 

I read it, too.  A farmers' market customer loaned it to me.  A little long-
winded, but good stuff, and an entertaining read.  You're fundamentally 
distorting Pollan's argument, though, if you make it out to be an argument 
for extravagant consumerism among consumers isolated from the sources of 
their food.  In fact, the book was largely about the shallowness of "USDA 
Organic" and other pastoral marketing gimmicks.  It was about connecting 
with the source, which is practically the opposite of paying $40/lb in New 
York City in order to feel "safe" about eating honey in consumeristic 
oblivion.

>So my expenses are high and I have a product that is hard to find. Basic 
economics says it aint going to be cheap.

I think some more careful consideration is in order here.  First, what's of 
real value, what's just a shallow marketing advantage, and what's just 
waste?  Then, let's consider which expenses are necessary for producing 
what's of real value.  Let's also consider whether we're trying to ride 
high on the waves of short-term supply and demand, or whether we're talking 
about real sustainability, based on producing simple food instead of the 
latest marketing fad with the most trendy label.

>Whats wrong with a beekeeper making a decent living?

If you're suggesting we define your "decent living" by the standards of the 
people that pay $40/lb for honey in New York City, I'll quietly think 
differently, but to call that standard "sustainable" seems absurd and an 
afront to real "sustainability".

>My guess is you're not doing bees for
>a living or you would be aware that profit is very very elusive in this 
business.  

I guess that gets back to how we define making "a living" :)  

>Here this guy is a successful alternative model to the highly leveraged 
>commercial guy who's competing with chinese honey.

How much money did this lawyer take to Hawaii with him?  And how many 
dollars are there to be earned selling $20/lb honey?  I don't think you're 
presenting much of an alternative.  Nor do I see any of the righteous 
appeal you seem to want to ascribe to it.

>It gets down to in the end you have some bees and you have a stack of 
bills to pay. Tell me please
>Eric how can I pay my bills and run a "clean" operation with minimal chems 
etc?  Should I go out
>on a limb trying to go organic and sell it for $3.00/pound?

Maybe the answer is that your bills aren't sustainable.  Maybe you can cut 
out some less profitable parts of your business and supplement your 
beekeeping income with something else, as opposed to following the 
monoculture model.  At $3/lb honey is still one of my most profitable farm 
enterprises, and I'm on the organic fringe.

Eric

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