From: "allen dick: " When we accept that what others report must have some
basis
>     in fact and try to examine how it relates to what we know, rather
>     than rejecting it out of hand, we learn a lot"

allen seems to be making an appeal for debate on this list to be more
productive - about time. He offers five conclusions that could help us all.

Some debates seem sometimes to enter interesting territory but others get
cut off prematurely when what someone has said is merely pulled to pieces by
someone with a different outlook, who does not then offer an alternative
analysis which would carry the deate forward, just carping.  It limits the
usefullness and the fun of spending time on the list - as the list in a way
'belongs' to all, the question of how debate should be conducted concerns
everyone.

'I think, therefore I am' can be extended to: 'I have thought, and am now
the sum total of the insights I have gained'.  That makes everyone a unique
dot on the spectrum of mankind. But we can discern bands or zones on the
spectrum. Crudely, of concern to Bee-L, there are professional/commercial
beekeepers, to whom honey (for example) is a product to be made and sold -
threats to the market are not tolerated. There are hobbyists, who keep bees
for interest, to whom honey is a by-product whose capabilities are of
interest along with all other aspects of bees.  Finally, there are
scientists for whom bee research is a career, and honey a mix of sugars and
trace components to be investigated.

 What seems to go wrong so often is that a point raised within one group is
answered from within another group who approach the topic from another angle
and take a different view on probabilities.  If there is no attempt to
understand what people are MEANING  rather than just what they are saying,
it rapidly gets pointless.  'Beekeeping is all fun' someone might say (the
context clearly indicating a hobbyist),  'impossible rubbish', might come
back from a professional  ' you have to get up at 4 am and drive 1,000
miles'.  Both views are truthful - neither is the whole truth, but the posts
bicker on.

Do we need Bee-L Com / Bee-L Hob / Bee-L Sci, to keep the groups apart?   I
hope not - the whole point is to exchange views widely.  But we cannot act
as one 'comunity of the web' without willingness to take the trouble to
understand the viewpoints of others, rather than just react to the words  -
and, as allen says, we have to allow the possibility that a view outside our
own experience, very often originating within a different group, is not
necessarily wrong.

A change of format in responces could make a great difference :  'beekeeping
is all fun'  - response: ' hobby beekeepers can clearly stick to the fun
side, but let me give you the different perpective of  a professional who
has to get up at 4 am ......".  That way, both groups could actually learn
something new.


Robin Dartington

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