Bob said:
> The problem as I see it is in proving Imidacloprid
> is the root of the
> problem.

Herve said:
I am not sure to understand this root concept. I was
under the feeling pesticides intoxication is one more
trouble bees have to face.

I am refering to the current lawsuit in U.S. court filed by U.S. beekeepers
against the Bayer corp . The whole basis of the current discussion is the
U.S. lawsuit pending against Bayer  and if imidacloprid is not the whole
problem then what is killing bees around the world. Mark Winston points out
several possible other reasons in his article which will also be used by
Bayer in their defense I am sure.
Mark raises the question (as do I) that would bees strong and not effected
by mites, constant stress from moving ,viruses and other problems fall prey
to a 1ppm dose of Imidacloprid. Most researchers familiar with bees and
chemicals say 1ppb is simply to low a number.

Bob said:
If Imidacloprid *is* the problem then we
> are moving into an area
> bees being effected by 1ppb and less.

The problem *as I understand the problem* is that  1ppb is considered by
most involved to be to low to cause the huge hive loss seen across the
world. This may be true with some chemicals but maybe not with Imidacloprid.

We need to move away from LD50 type effects and look at *sublethal effects*
which is a gray area in our current knowledge.
We have got technology  I am told which can measure a response at 5/10,000
of a microgram per bee.

My guess (and only a guess) is the area of sublethal effects will be the
area the beekeepers will be talking about. Seperating the common knowledge
and putting the focus directly on the chemical Imidacloprid.

Herve said:
 Yet, each area have its own planted
patterns using Imidacloprid (Sunflower in France,
potatoes in North America for example, so the problem
may be more or less intense depending on imadaclopride
use, surfaces planted and their particular
consequences on bees exposure).

First let me say none of us doubt bees are dying. We all want to id the
problem. The use of chemicals using Imidacloprid is widespread as said
above. In many cases when hives  die beekeepers are blaming imidacloprid for
lack of another answer.

 Mark points out in his article a case in which a Canadian beekeeper
screamed his bees were killed by use of Imidacloprid when Imidacloprid had
not been legally used for 2000 miles nor even registered  for canola. Was
illegal use going on? Always a possibility. Testing is not cheap so we will
never know for sure .

Herve said:
 My point is bees "seemed" unaffected perhaps because we had not the tools
to see it. And even if they "seemed" unaffected in laboratory conditions for
a short period of time, they can be
affected in the field in production conditions and
submitted to real other stress factors, IMHO.

Excellent point and I agree completely.

>Synergetic toxicity can not be taken into account by
>such approach, without talking about by-products. Does
it mean beekeepers have to wait for the science
miracle in lab to prove, without any doubt, bees are
dying from one pesticide more than from another one ?
Or that bees could have passed through the winter if
not exposed but exposure was too much for half of them
?

It seems beekeepers around the world are convinced Imidacloprid is the
problem and taking action. If they are correct then the dying/dwindeling
problem should stop but reports keep coming in of problems  in both  France
and the U.S.

I will end with a quote from pg.86 of "The Apple Grower" by Michael
Phillips:

"Agriculture is deeply indebted to the honey bee. Yet there's tragedy
brewing in the hives. The honeybee has been bred for profit to the point
where it has become easy prey for VIRUSES AND PARASITIC MITES THAT ARE
DESTROYING THE SPECIES. Pesticides take their toll as well. Rudolf Steiners
prediction in 1923 that mankind would lose the honeybee in eighty years time
is looking ominously correct."

I doubt we will lose the honeybee but Steiners prediction of dire problems
for beekeepers have certainly been correct in my opinion.
In 1923 when the perdiction was made about the only problem facing the
beekeeper was foulbrood.

I call Michael friend and attended a half day organic apple  workshop put on
by Michael at the National Small Farm Today trade show & Conference last
year. I was surprised by the knowledge Michael had of the current situation
being a non beekeeper and we discussed the honey bee and current honeybee
situation in great detail.

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison

Ps. I will be doing a hour long beekeeping discussion on Thursday November
fourth at the National Small Farm Today Trade Show & Conference but will be
at the show all three days to discuss beekeeping problems. November 4-6.
Stop by my booth.

I will also be at the beautiful Powell Botanical Gardens outside of KC.,
Missouri on both June 12th & 13th. during their "Big Bugs" promotion. The
weekend is devoted to the honeybee.

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