[log in to unmask] writes:

What's  so puzzling,  Dee?

I'm a big fan of "put up or shut up", high-stakes  stud  poker,
and bake-offs.  This is a openly stated attempt to smoke   out
someone who would be willing to rent or sell existing small-cell
colonies and their comb for a fair price, and someone else who
has  the  time/staff to accept a funded study.

Your experience with the  staff at  Tucson was typical of the
haphazard approach to testing what  should be an  easy thing
to at least verify under "controlled  conditions", if not
verify/prove the exact mechanism(s) at  work.

Reply:
Well, Jim, I/we had a signed contract with the USDA on  that project for
them
to do the work with our bees on a technical  exchange of information that
unfortunately stated in it the bees and  equipment that was loaned to them to
do
the work still belonged to us.  It was a contract accepted and signed by
regional  headquarters in  Albany Calif and had a few subcontracts attached
to  it,
and a few  interested ovreseas to participate. But was told when it  ended,
that
politics had to go the other way for awhile due to money needed for   the
labs, so much seemingly was put aside. We however continued to do  what  we
had
started and presented to them on our own when the contract  was originally
written, and so accepted the overseas visits started to  see what we were
doing,
which was basically what we had always done,  to see if we could keep the
bees
alive that way following small  cell,  with just the change out of the  comb
size
regressed back  to old standard sizings, before enlargements began,  while
using no  dopes. Heck, we even dropped the TM and storage stuff going to
propolis
patties, and then nothing.

but you say:
Your experience with the  staff at Tucson was  typical of the
haphazard approach to testing what  should be an easy  thing
to at least verify under "controlled  conditions", if not
verify/prove the exact mechanism(s) at  work.

Yes, you would think so and would have been done  and should  have been done,
and we/I  provided bees to look at in the field   and even took many
nucs/equip
to lab for own working yard on premises right  at  the lab itself, that were
infact shown to other beekeepers during  the 1990 AHPA  meeting here in
Tucson.
I even went over and grafted for  them  queens that they put into own
incubator
at times because no one  was there  to do it so they would have queens to
work
with. I even  videoed tapes at  both lab and here for them to look at and
monitor (I  now have videos back here  on thelytoky/mites disected assoc with
foul
done back then in late 1980s and  early 1990s). Donated hand made  foundation
for a few years of small cell,  and lab even sent some to  friends in canada
also for usage. Helped with  foundation for local  indian tribes too with the
lab
for research, but somehow  they just  couldn't do......don't know why, for we
were doing it and it didn't   seem hard to us.




Jim  continued:
But the primary  point here is that no one is going to  "buy"
results from a study unless  the colonies are moved to the
property of a research facility, and at  least temporary
control is  ceded to the facility staff.  In other  words,
we need to avoid any  possible claim that someone  cheated.

Reply:
Jim, to have close to 800 colonies going successfully  now, and give to
those, that when I do see them looking at our bees,  don't know what they are

looking at, is foolish now IMPOV. If they are  that good and trained then let
 them
do it. Regress the bees and just  do it. Putting bees back on large comb,
restarts the mites  overproducing again. Been there, done that. Don't need a
new
kid now  from college with stamp on back to say "Hey beekeeper lady let's see
if
you  are talking straight". That point in time is past now. Nothing moves
without  contract like the first time....and in fact nothing moves for  when
the
tests are  done with the labs or what ever research facility.  Then IT STILL
HAS
TO BE  TESTED IN THE FIELD TO SEE IF IT WORKS  COMMERCIALLY!!! This we are
now
already  doing.....so why go backwards  in time to restart what....for how
long playing  games......playing  games is over! Besides the Tucson lab
already
has shown us  what can be  done................right?


Jim  Fischer contined back to  me:
> Sit back and wait...........gee, it's  been 8 years going on
> 9 in 2005 now coming! How long does one  wait

Golly gosh, I  dunno why I have to be the one think up a  simple
study methodology and  challenge the entire industry to prove or
disprove what has been  talked about endlessly, my excuse is that
I've  been busy doing other  stuff.  :)  What's everyone else's   excuse?

Reply:
Sorry, you are late on the scene for this happening.  Have you read the
latest
"Introductionary Study for Breeding  Varroa Resistant Bees" 2004 done  by the
Swedish Beekeepijng  Association? It's 193 pages long and final report is  27
pages adding  to it.
Afraid the work is almost already done now but helped by the EU and  not
USDA
unfortunately to say.Maybe Allen Dick in Canada can give you  a copy to read
or Prof Frazier at Penn State. I think now from it  those in Europe will make

more strides while those here will just keep  muddering.


Jim  replying to me again:
> But key here is  gutta want to do  it...

Well, I agree that we really oughta  wanna.
I wanna. I  got cash, I can twist arms, and I got  time.

Reply:
Sorry you are so late in starting to want to. But the  ball is already
rolling and USA is now several years behind those  keeping abreast  with are
overseas friends, with the exception of  a few key  beekeepers on the
Organics List I
have been talking with for  some time now.




Jim Fischer replying  again:
>  ..................and mite drop counts
> to me is  for researchers  with time. Me I/we got work to
> do now with bees again  and no more  time for tinkering
> in basics when everything is under   control.

So you don't even gather data from your own colonies, yet  you  moan
and groan that someone else won't come and do it for  you?

Reply:
Didn't say that exactly I don't think.  I have been  told so many times I am
not a researcher that good counts have to be   done, and our bees are doing
so
well, so that for so few counted it is   detrimental workload to that
workload
really needing to be done, and also  the  fact that since I wasn't believed
in
the beginnning when I was  counting and  keeping track, that I see no reason
to
do it, for those  that would want it  verified to see if I did it right to
begin with, so  let the ones so educated  with stamp of approval do it. And
if they
won't come  back.........................which is a for real scene  having
happened.........then the counts aren't really
needed......................for
NO ONE in authority really wants to  know the truth...............and it has
been  said the truth is out  there!!!!! But controlling the situation then
means
like  with other  agricultural control............the money chain
ends......and
I don't   think that is wanted........no matter how bad our industry gets!!!!
now you  tell  me.........................How can this be?????



Jim  replies:
Now I  >>am<< confused!!    :)


Reply:
So am I. It is said a long-term  solution is  needed, but no one said it
would
be willingly accepted and used if  it  envolved work.........such is the
pesticide treadmill of life and   quick-fixes!!!!!!

Very best regards to you  Jim:

Dee A.  Lusby

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