I appologize for the intense cross posting, but if the moderators (where
present) will permit me to do so I would appreciate it as these discussions
are being reproduced and forked on almost all of these lists and need to be
glued together again. The few lists that haven't been part of the crossed and
broken discussion thus far I have included because the topics do concern them
directly according to the individual lists' purposes, charter, and
membership.

To Dennis (aka topbarguy, aka {US}BeeWrangler) and the related discussion
participants,

 I have been reading your posts with interest. As you know, I am also a top
bar hive beekeeper. What you may not know is that my operation has expanded
to exlusively 33 top bar hives this year. My first 4 hives coming from
package installations and the rest entirely from swarm/feral removal/capture.
I agree with that you have been experiencing with your hive as far as brood
nest structure is concerned. There are two things I believe you (with good
reason) misunderstand though.

 As to brood nest structure and the tapering of cell sizing within the brood
nest. You have noticed that the bees build a core which they then build
around. What I believe you misunderstand is that this is a nest structure
built purposely to this general specification. It is not. The resulting nest
structure you have been observing is a function of time. When you install
bees into an empty TBH (or even foundationless frame lang) the bees will
build as quickly as they can a functioning brood nest. This is their focus
until the bees perceive they have enough of a nest to work with. You have
also observed that the bees do not build once complete comb before moving on
to the next, they build or work-on several combs at once. A fresh
installation of bees will begin working on as many combs as their cluster
(which is most often some roundish shape) can cover at once. I have seen
clusters as small as only being able to build just 3 small combs for an
initial brood nest, and clusters as large as able to start working on 10 bars
at once. If the generally roundish cluster covers 6 empty top bars, then they
will begin working on 6 bars almost immediately, or within just a couple of
days (literally within 1, 2 or 3 days). The resulting nest ends up being
slightly larger than the inital mass of bees, because the comb itself takes
up some space, and so the cluster itself increases in size (not number), due
to this use of space. Once the bees have finished building comb that they can
cover completely, they stop building the core brood nest.

  Once this initial setting up has been accomplished, the bees begin working
on other tasks. They cannot continue working on brood nest structure, because
there are not enough bees to cover the combs. The bees begin to task bringing
in pollen and bringing in nectar. These products are initially stored at the
outside of the brood nest since the initial nest is layed up all the way to
the top row of the nest. The initial cells used for what I call interim
storage hovers somewhere in the vicinity of 1 inch in thickness measuring the
distance from the broodnest across a comb, not the thickness of the comb.
This is almost universally the amount of storage the bees can produce while
supporting the first brood cycle. Almost as soon as the first bees emerge,
which understandably enough happens to be at the top of the nest, these
initial cells are immediately reassigned to storage, and the bees begin
working more towards the back of the hive, building storage cells which are
visibly giant sized honey storage cells.

 The brood combs as they continue to be slowly built upon, are built during
various phases of the colony's seasonal development. Since the bees dont
simply build down to the bottom of the hive one comb at a time and since they
build them gradually now as population increases, the uniformity of the cells
lessens. The bees are building brood comb while they have other things on
their mind. These cells simply aren't being built with the brood buildup
mindset of the bees. They are used to increase worker force as needed or used
for storage as needed, and the cells are built, slightly adjusted by and,
according to their current needs.

 What you are experiencing dennis is the same thing you will expereince if you
repeat your experiments 10, 100 or 1,000,000 times. You are seeing the bees
build a fresh colony. It will repeat itself indefinity because the often
forgotten dimension in colony development is "Time Management". It is because
of the length of time it takes for a colony to build from nothing that the
structure of the nest can be fairly repeated over and over. If you continue
with your experiments, I would urge you to experiment with different sized
starting clusters. With the different sized starting clusters you will begin
to see wider variety of inital brood nest structures.

 You can further and expand your experimentation by not only starting new
colonies, but also by manipulating existing established colonies. The mind
set of the bee VERY MUCH DETERIMINES what kind of comb is going to be built.
This following experience can also be simulated by placing an empty top bar
smack dab in the middle of the brood nest if you don't wish to just LET THE
FOLLOWING HAPPEN. Have you ever seen your hives attacked by wax moth? I have,
even in strong colonies and the results are very interesting and directly
impact Dennis' observations. And what happens is the bees either don't seem
recognize the threat early on, but recognize it later when symptoms of the
moth because evident, OR they let it occur (I say this because in some few
cases I have seen the bees and the moth's co-existing successfully and
peacefully). Let's all key in right now the thought that this isn't occuring
during 1st cycle crunch time. In fact it can ALMOST NEVER happen during the
1st brood cycle. The ratio of bees to comb is far too high for moths to
successfully invade unless the cluster is already really small. It requires
an equilibrium of bees to comb, so that the moths can do their work on comb
unmolested by the bees. The primary target symptom seeming to be brood which
can't escape from their cells when ready to emerge. When this happens and the
bees recognize what's happening, they tear down the comb and kill the moth
larvae. Now all of a sudden we have a bare comb or bare top bar depending on
the amount of damage done, and the bees rework it. The bees aren't being
forced to build cells according to the crunch time clock, they can build
whatever they want or whatever is on their mind at the time. The bees when
needing the comb will rebuild it to whatever specification they deem
necessary at that time. If during the height of a flow, the bees will built a
sole and whole comb of honey storage RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the brood nest.
If the bees are in a brood rearing mindset, they build EXTEMELY UNIFORM brood
comb.

 Next year dennis, in the spring while it is still cold yet not cold enough to
do harm, and when the bees have utilized the already existing brood comb for
early buildup so they will have NEED for more brood room (again smart
seasonal management), place empty bars within the brood nest. Place as many
as you feel is safe, but only 1 empty bar between any two good brood combs.
What you will discover very soon, is a uniformly drawn brood comb built from
top to bottom of cells that match your CORE BROOD nest cell dimensions. Do
this during the height of a flow, and you will find a comb built entirely to
store honey. Understand this is NATURAL. This occurs naturally in colonies by
means of wax moth. Its something that is already going to happen on its own
if you have the stomach it allow it when it does happen on its own.

 Seasonal management is a nearly forgotten art. Seasonal management involves
providing the bees with what they want/need when they want/need it. It is not
what it has become, seasonal management is NOT forcing the bees to do
something they wouldn't normally do. It is not forcing the bees to build
brood comb in the middle of the early summer flows. It is not sweeping the
hives of pests with chemicals, and it is not sticking in drone comb for
varroa magnets. Any management technique that aids a colony's survival in any
case when it could not survive on its own is a short term solution, and
propogation of a long term problem. Long term problems are solved by playing
the game of life.

To Dick, Keith, and related discussion participants,
 We have been talking about breeding bees in extreme conditions. Its is one of
the key charter points for the ApiarianBreedersGuild and NorlandBeekeepers
groups. Through this discussion a few people at different times have asked
about a location gene. Obviously this was mentioned either in jest, or to
stir up further discussion on what it means for bees to be in different
places.

 There is obviously no "location gene". What we can demonstrate though through
an impossible to practice experiment is that some bees do better in different
climates. We aren't talking about different breeds, ALTHOUGH certainly
different breeds can do better here than there. Bear with me though, because
this is an experiment that CAN BE explored in the mind, and as some have
quoted einstein already, I don't feel wrong in pointing out that almost
everything that einstein espoused was entirely through the excersizing the
mind and performing experiments explored entire within the confines of his
mind. So lets try this on our own and prove to ourselves just how smart each
of us as individuals can be. This is a mind experiment only, obviously this
is impossible to physically duplicate in the strictest sense of the word
because there are some conditions that cannot be repeated which I will
outline below through this mental exercise.

 Take a sample of bees which will remain the same sample of bees through out
the course of this excerise (this is what cannot be duplicated, you can never
take exactly the same set of bees through more than one phase of this
experiment, only different though perhaps closely related cousins or
progeny). Take a sample as large as you like, though I encourage you to think
in terms of 1,000,000s colonies of bees simply to equalize the effects of
external and random influences. In otherwords we make our sample large enough
so that randomness doesn't effect the outcome of the experiment. Further
forget the concept of race and strain for the moment, this is fairly
unimportant. If it seems important to you, then imaging and equal
distribution of all or as many of the races and strains of bees as you see
fit. (AHB, NWC, Italians, Russians, Caucasians, whatever). The result of the
experiement is relatively unchanged (again because of the size of our sample
and the general nature of the experiment).

 If we take our 1,000,000 bees and place them all in alaska (simplify this by
imagining that all of alaska is the same). Through the course of 1 year,
several colonies will die, and several will succeed. Through the course of
the 2nd year, several more will die and still several will succeed. (lets
forget offsring for the moment as well, stick with the orginal sample, we'll
talk about progeny later on). The bees which display the ability to survive
will make it through winter. Continue this experiment as long as you wish and
you will find that you have bees that (without other outside and random
influences) are suited for that climate.

 If we take our 1,000,000 bees and place them in the sonara desert imagining
that the climate is same all over the desert, you will have the same results.
Some colonies will survive and others won't. 2nd year and the bees will
continue to be filtered until all you are left are bees which succeed in the
desert (again forgotting progeny).

 If we take out 1,000,000 bees and put them in Great Britain (again imaging
all of great britain is uniform), and the same thing occurs. Some colonies
will survive and some won't. Continue for another year or 2 and the bees
further are filtered until the ones that display the right characteristics
are the ones that are left.

 Repeat for Florida, repeat for African climates, repeat for south american
climated, repeat for any climate you can imagine on this wholeseom green
earth and you will find the results remain the same. The only differences
will be two...The sets of bees which survive will change depending on the
environments you selected, and perhaps the number of survivors proportional
to the extreme of the condition. In alaska and the desert you will likely
find fewer survivors due to the extreme natures of alaska and the desert, and
you will find a larger number of survivors in less extreme areas such as
perhaps Virginia or the North and West Meditaranean regions (Italy, France,
Greece, etc.)

 If you repeat these same experiemnt (again impossible because you cannot have
the same set of bees for each experiment), you will discover that the same
general grouping of bees which display the same characteristics and abilities
are the same ones that survive. This can be repeated as many times as you
wish to run the experiment. Regardless of the criteria for survival, the same
bees will survive when the criteria remain the same.

 Now lets take the non-existent progeny and place them into the mix. As these
sets of bees which display characteristics for survival are able to express
themselves by means of reproduction, the survial of the grouping becomes
reinforced and the competition phase of the experiment comes into play. The
bees which not only survive, but are able to compete with thier neighbors
better than others will gather more nectar and pollen than the rest, will
build-up more appropriately (not necessarily faster) according to conditions,
and will issue swarms more readily when able. These swarms will replace lost
colonies and fill voids where lost and loosing colonies were once in place.
These bees will outcompete their neighbors that do not do so well, and the
bees that don't do so well might not ever get a change to express their genes
through reproduction, and if they can, they do so so seldomly that their lack
of ability is not passed on to any great extent to the next round of players.
Again just as the criteria for survival is diverse, so are the criteria for
competition. Proper building up does not necessarily mean fastest building
up, in a desert region perhaps building up too fast can mean death as there
may not be enough nectar and pollen to keep such a large colony going. If the
bees don't time things correctly, they might use up all their resources and
not be able to raise more brood when the right time to do so does come, they
may even starve themselves if they are not able to find enough to feed
themselves let alone raise more brood.

All in all, you can see that the bees we choose are very important to our
success. Especially in extreme locations, some bees just may not be able to
get the job done, where others can excel. What about dealing with pests and
predetors, this remains the same. There is only one sure fire way to ensure
that we have bees that can do the job, that is to let the bees that are going
to do so anyway, die. That leaves the bees that can get the job done to do
so. Each colony either has what it takes to survive and compete within any
given environment or it does not. Should we try and keep those that don't
have the characteristics and chances for survival and competition alivce and
breeding, or should we let them as a whole figure out who's who in the game
of life? Keeping the loosers going can only perpetuate a loosing circumstance
for all. ALL means ALL of us, beekeepers, bees, plants and trees and cows and
all the others that are impacted by the success of our little friend the
honey bee.

First criterion is the ability to survive, 2nd criterion is the ability to
compete. Catching swarms already helps us out somewhat with both criteria
because we know they came from somewhere at least successful enough to issue
a swarm. Swarms have already shown the ability to reproduce in whatever
climate we find ourselves. Even in the more mild climates, a swarm has had
some filtering and comes from a colony that was able to get to reproduction.
Although it may not be a perfect set of bees, its certainly a lot better
chance than packages of bees from Florida to be sent to Alaska.


--
Scot Mc Pherson
[log in to unmask]
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot
http://beewiki.linuxfromscratch.org
AIM: ScotLFS ICQ: 342949 MSN:[log in to unmask]

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
-- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and  other info ---
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::