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Subject:
From:
michael Bassett <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:22:38 -0400
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On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:37:15 -0400, Aaron Morris
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:


>A conclusion of Apistan resistance can only be valid if you test for varroa
>immediately after using Apistan.  If you use Apistan for a week and then do
>an ether
>roll or sugar shake (or some other diagnostic testing) and still find high
 actually somehow I sent the original message b/4 I had finished.
after putting in the apistan this year for full time( and putting in a
sticky board) i put in checkmite(with a new stickyboard)  comparing the
boards after I have far higher # of mites on the boards after the checkmite
and that is after the normal # of days for apistan. So I'm still guessing
as to resistence but sure looks like it.
>
>> My first hive was noticed in early June, again i wasn't
>> sure it was PMS.
>PMS is a confusing condition to diagnose.  Its symptoms can look like and
>may actually
>be some or many other maladies.  The temptation to cry PMS is hard to avoid
>these days,
>PMS is in vogue and it's easy to classify problems as PMS when they make in
>fact be
>something else,

true but I sent multiple samples to beltsville and they confirmed no
afb,efb,etc just PMS.


>
>> checked all hives in early july and all appeared fine.
>How did you check?  There are many ways including visual examination,
pulled
here I do need to do a better job, all I did was pull out drone brood and
check for mite levels on a few of the hives not all, this I have to work on.


>
>> went to put on apistan in mid august and one entire
>> apiary of 8 hives had crashed, esitimate of 10-20% of my
>> other hives also showed PMS but not as bad.
>Obviously, hints of PMS in early June followed by treatments in mid-August
>was too late.

TRue and now that I know what PMS looks like and since I'm now going to
treat in the spring and test more should help to identify earlier.


>Suspicions on PMS in June should have been confirmed or allayed in June.
>I'm not
>lecturing here, I'm sharing blunders I have made in my beekeeping past.
>Been there,
>done that.
>
>> used checkmite on the 8 hives and used apistan on the rest and am
>> following up with formic acid on the ones that i used apistan on.
>This follow up with formic will cloud any conclusions you will make.  Will
>it be the
>Apistan or formic or the combination or the two that impacted the results?
>How will
>you know?

I have allready done the drop test to confirm that the apistan treatment
wasn't effective. and even though I have the checkmite only used it on the
hives that had PMS and were in Mass where I could apply it.



>You may conclude that you have Apistan resistant mites, but there may be
>lots going
>on in your hives that you are dismissing.  Next spring you'll have to
>consider if the
>checkmited hives were the same as the Apistan/formic hives?  Same strength?

I'm mixing and matching on the hives in one location.  some only had
apistan, some only checkmite, and all hives were in equally bad shape, and
I even wrote down the treatment on paper to compare in the spring. Since I
have given these hives up to see what treatment works best I have not
complicated it by multiple applications. and no matter what anyone
concludes there will always be things going on in the hives that we don't
know about, that we have to live with and is a fact of life.


>> Since Formic acid didn't seem to do
>> anything when treated in the spring,
>Well, WHY didn't formic do anything in the spring?  What is the basis of
>your statement?
>Perhaps formic worked very well in the spring and your bees picked up a
>subsequent
>infestation or reinfestation from another source.

I again had sticky boards in some hives and didn't see a high mite fall but
didn't test further, mistake again. but if my mites are resistent to
apistan and had done a drop test, i still wouldn't have found any, guess I
will have to do ether rolls or something next time.

 I have been VERY
>impressed with the
>formic induced mite fall I am seeing in my hives this fall.  I wish Bob
>Stevens the
>best of luck getting the kinks out.  If indeed formic did nothing for you
in
>the spring,
>might you be able to offer any SWAGs as to why?  Were your gel packs the
>initial off-spec
>run?  Might there have been something about your application methods?
>Perhaps formic is more effective in fall than spring.

I applied by the directions for the directed time, as to off spec I can't
know, I would assume I would be notified if the were off spec? the label
does specify that it works better in the fall and even at that will only
kill 70% of the mites.  this brings me back to the original reason I wrote
what I wrote. If you must treat for mites twice a year, and apistan is not
working (well?) and formic doesn't appear to, and the label says it won't
work well in the spring, your options do get more limited. as to whether my
problems were because apistan in the fall was inefective, the formic in the
spring was inafective, looking back I can't give you clear evidence, all i
can say is that combination in my environment doesn't work. I can say that
the apiary that was the worst is not isolated and I know there are no longer
any hives left around it, at least the ones I knew about, so I ass u m they
probably suffered the same fate. I did notice that formic like menthol
some hives had the white powder some sill had the gel, again I didn't keep
records but will next time as it could explain why some hive's had higher
mites.

>
>> seems to me that the only alternative left
>> is to use check mite?
>It is this statement that inspired me to write.  There are plenty of
>alternatives.  First,
>better diagnosing for better conclusions.  Faster action for suspected
>problems.  IPM
>management, including screened bottom boards coupled with smoke that knocks
>mites down
>(tobacco for instance), drone trapping, queen confinement and splits.  And
 I allready use drone comb, one sheet per hive, am looking at the screen
boards and allread do splits, after looking back at my records on the 8
hives the ones that i rated as higher mite and PMS are hives that didn't
have splits made from them or didn't swarm, but as per usual this is a WAG.
                        mike bassett

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