> Ok, I'd take a deep breath.

As always giving advice on nosema ceranae is tricky. Most commercial
beekeepers will not to other than another commercial beekeeper.
 My opinion on nosema ceranae for the most part is
different than both Randy & Jerry. Then comes along Kirk Jones and says he
has NEVER treated for nosema at all which totally floors me but we are close
friends and I believe what he says.

 Heavily infested bees may or may not have  a
> problem,

This is contrary to what I have seen. In fact with an *average* spore count
of 15,100,000 per bee those bees are done for. Not worth trying to save.
With a spore count a third that high many times less than fifty percent will
come around and even then remain dinks for the rest of the season. I
actually have expected a call before now from Kirk Jones saying he is losing
hives and finding millions & millions of spores per bee but so far has not 
happened.

>we're convinced it has to do with a Nosema plus another  pathogen.

If this hypothesis of Jerry is true then the only possible answer is to
depopulate the hives , use acetic acid or Clorox on the boxes, feeders &
frames and add bees. Jerry?

However if Jerry's hypothesis is not correct then one might decide to
attempt treatment. If so then I would bet bees with an AVERAGE spore count
of 15,100.000 per bee *will not * take syrup. As I have said so many times
before on BEE-L that the best way to tell if bees are taking feed is with a
inside feeder in which bees can drown. Beekeepers without these feeders will 
not
observe these easy to see symptoms.

I personally would consider depopulation and treating the comb but will
explain fumigillin drench as explained to me by Eric Mussen and others.( and
personal experience)

I can't really do a post on nosema without stepping on toes so understand
what I am going to say may not be in line with others.



I'm not in favor of
> drenching - you kill too many bees.

The bees are dying and not taking feed.
Drenching will NOT kill healthy bees.

 Our experience, which you can try on a
> couple of colonies and know in a day or 2, FEED the fumagilin in syrup,
> following label directions - don't double up doses, etc.

I have seen over the last few years heavily infested hives which were fed
fumigillin at label doses both spring and fall. We suspect fumigillin is not
as effective as fumidil B was or nosema ceranae is harder to control with
fumigillin.


> Bees so bad they won't take syrup, then add a dash of Honey Bee  Healthy.

This is BS as although HBH makes bees jump on syrup the problem is that the
bees are starving which is why the bees die in feeders. The bees want to
feed but can't. We are talking ABOUT HEAVILY INFESTED HIVES HERE.

Honey Bee Healthy for some reason is attractive to bees. In testing with 
plain
syrup and a HBH syrup the bees visit the HBH bowl. The fumigillin drench
method ( as approved and on the label) is for bees which will not take feed.
Shannon's bees in my opinion fit this description.

> I DO NOT KNOW what this product does in terms of bee health, but  we found
> that bees heavily infested with N. ceranae, stopped taking syrup, but
> would
> resume taking it, if we added the Honey Bee Healthy - maybe its like Pepto
> Bismol for bees.

HBH was reverse engineered and the make up is simple essential oils but the
process to make requires an emulsifier.


>
> Don't feed just once, feed at least two times about 7-10 days apart, then
> check again.  May take three doses.  We got much better control giving
> 2-3
> treatments, then we did with one doubled up dose (which many are
> advocating).

The above will work *if* the bees are taking feed. IF NOT ( as I suspect
from the nosema spore counts) then will not work and only prolong the issue.

We can run PCR and determine whether you have N. apis,
> N.  ceranae, or both.

A waste of time in my opinion. Shannon you need to decide a course of
action. If you decide to treat send me an email and I will tell you the
fumigillin drench others have used and the time period and methods.
Based on research over six years of drench use in Spain.

In closing I suspect my friend Jerry B. might be right about nsoema ceranae
in combination with a pathogen is the main problem.  At least Jerry is now
agreeing with me that nosema cerane is involved (which if you look back into
the archives was not the case in 2007 discussion)

If those on the list have seen what I have seen I think you would be
protecting your hive investment with fumigillin ( at least going into
winter in the north) or at the very least get a microscope and do periodic
testing for nosema spores.

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison
retiring from commercial *active* beekeeping this year due to health reasons
but will keep and expand retail and store sales.

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