> This may be the core to why there is even a argument. The genetics of the
> two sample groups, could be causing the different results for the different
> beekeepers...

I've been really enjoying this discussion, and am finding the ideas presented to
be very thought-provoking.  Although we are being presented with what appear to
be opposing views, I suspect that all the comments have some validity.  If they
do not appear at first glance to be compatible, I think that further examination
is necessary.

Underlying assumptions very much affect the conclusions that different parties
reach with the same observations.  The goals and locations of the individuals
determine the course that seems best for each.  I have observed that there seems
to be a clear split between the idealists who want perfect queens at all costs
and practical folks who make (all) their daily bread directly from their bees.

Seems that Murray, Dave Green & I -- and others -- have favourable things to say
about emergency queens (They are quick, easy, cheap, and range from passably
good to excellent) and have some reservations about the problems associated with
buying and installing boxed queens.  Each uses cells in addition to, and in
preference to, emergency queens or caged queens much of the time.  Notably the
three named above are all involved in commercial crop pollination.   Each
explicitly states that he tries to co-operate with the bees to achieve his
goals.

In contrast, those in the 'purchased queen only' camp -- if I understand
correctly -- are to a man, sideliners and people who are willing to do a lot of
work, suffer considerable inconvenience, and overlook massive failures of
purchased queens to achieve their ideals.  To me, there also seems to be attempt
at domination over the bees in their approach.

I hope I am not misrepresenting anyone's position here and I realise I am
leaving out some who have made good contributions to this thread.  My apologies,
because they have made some good points and, I am sure, will make some more.

I'll have more to say on this, particularly in the line between supercedure and
emergency, later when I have finished thinking this through and discussing it
around our table.

I'll also maybe get around to asking the question of why emergency cells drawn
on the edge of a piece of cut foundation in one popular and well accepted queen
rearing method are okay and the ones the bees raise themselves on the face of
the comb are not.  Maybe.

Maybe I'll also ask if all the grafted queens we buy are not started under the
emergency impulse. Even in a 'swarm box'.   Maybe.

Later

allen