>> It seems that CCD is a syndrome, more than a disease.

> And I disagree with this statement

CCD is the term coined and applied in the USA to a specific set of 
symptoms.  To wit:

"A colony which has collapsed from CCD is generally characterized by all 
of these conditions occurring simultaneously:[26]

"Presence of capped brood in abandoned colonies. Bees normally will not 
abandon a hive until the capped brood have all hatched.
Presence of food stores, both honey and bee pollen:
i. which are not immediately robbed by other bees
ii. which when attacked by hive pests such as wax moth and small hive 
beetle, the attack is noticeably delayed.
Presence of the queen bee. If the queen is not present, the hive died 
because it was queenless, which is not considered CCD.
Precursor symptoms that may arise before the final colony collapse are:

"Insufficient workforce to maintain the brood that is present
Workforce seems to be made up of young adult bees
The colony members are reluctant to consume provided feed, such as sugar 
syrup and protein supplement.

"The cause or causes of the syndrome are not yet fully understood. In 
2007 some authorities attributed the problem to biotic factors such as 
Varroa mites and insect diseases (i.e., pathogens[6] including Nosema 
apis and Israel acute paralysis virus).[7][8] Other proposed causes 
include environmental change-related stresses,[9] malnutrition, 
pesticides (e.g.. neonicotinoids such as clothianidin and imidacloprid), 
and migratory beekeeping.

"More speculative possibilities have included both cell phone radiation 
(e.g.[10]) and genetically modified (GM) crops with pest control 
characteristics,[11][12] though no evidence exists for either assertion. 
It has also been suggested that it may be due to a combination of many 
factors and that no single factor is the cause.[13][14][15] The most 
recent report (USDA - 2010) states that "based on an initial analysis of 
collected bee samples (CCD- and non-CCD affected), reports have noted 
the high number of viruses and other pathogens, pesticides, and 
parasites present in CCD colonies, and lower levels in non-CCD colonies. 
This work suggests that a combination of environmental stressors may set 
off a cascade of events and contribute to a colony where weakened worker 
bees are more susceptible to pests and pathogens."[16]

"Applying proteomics-based pathogen screening tools in 2010, researchers 
announced they had identified a co-infection of invertebrate iridescent 
virus type 6 (IIV-6) and Nosema ceranae in all CCD colonies sampled.[17] 
The study is the first to conclude that co-factors, the virus and 
fungus, were present in all of the collapsed colonies studied.[18] 
However, scientists in the project emphasize additional research is 
still needed to consider how environmental factors like temperatures, 
drought and pesticides might play a role, if any, in CCD.[18]

The above is from Wikipedia.  As previously noted here, some of the 
criteria are imprecise and subject to interpretation, but there is no 
mention of a ramp test or ankle rub as being definitive of CCD, yet at 
least. Please note the use of the word, "syndrome" in the above passage.

"syndrome /syn·drome/ (sin´drōm) a set of symptoms occurring together; 
the sum of signs of any morbid state; a symptom complex...

Although not the only description, it is pretty close to the consensus 
opinion AFAIK.

More at http://home.ezezine.com/1636/1636-2008.12.30.21.09.archive.html

That is not to say you are not correct, but that nobody else has noticed 
or reported what you see, or confirmed that your bee problem conforms to 
the generally accepted pattern.  Some of your observations may actually 
suggest otherwise.

So far, CCD is defined by a set of symptoms and a morbid state.

> I don't remember seeing this before 4 years ago
> If your bees don't have ccd then you will NOT see this

In as much as the USA is the home of CCD so far, and those defining and 
confirming CCD have, so far, been in the USA, have you been able to 
observe your 'CCD' in the US and discuss it with those who 'own' the term?

If not, you may have the opportunity to name CCCD (Canadian Collony 
Collapse Disorder).

> In many absconds that I have seen winter is NOT a factor,
> these absconds happened late Aug to Nov, left much honey, but little or no brood
> Clearly the Q was failing in some of these cases, not because of age but due to ccd

I am not sure if what you report is what beekeepers generally agree is 
absconding.  It sounds more like dwindling.  Most of us -- I think -- 
understand the term 'absconding' to refer to the phenomenon where an 
entire colony, together with the queen leave the hive en masse, like a 
swarm.

Dwindling on the other hand is a condition where the adult bees 
disappear over a period of time, long or short.

> IMO ccd is a really nasty bug, maybe it is even one of the top 20 worst pathogens
> due to mortality rate and longetivity of the pathogen.
> It appears to be a virus

It would be interesting if your observations could be confirmed by third 
parties.  I understand that the Ontario team could or would not confirm 
your contentions.  There could be a number of reasons for that, and this 
fact does not negate your claims.

>> sometimes profitable affliction in the US.

> Citation?

This has been discussed in our archives,  See PPB.

Also consider how much money has been thrown at CCD research. 
Beekeepers lose, but some researchers have hit the mother lode when  a 
while back, the unemployment line was beckoning in some cases.

> I  think loss must be at least 10x any possable profit, maybe 100x

True, but CCD is an explanation that gathers sympathy from friends and 
banks, whereas bad luck or negligence as explanations -- not so much.

>> but has not presented his case clearly enough

> I don't have a "case".  I don't care if you believe me or not,

That may be why you have written so cryptically in the past. Maybe you 
want to inspire disbelief.  As for me, I neither believe or disbelieve. 
  I merely note your points and think they bear examination to the 
extent that is possible.

I don't disbelieve that your bees have demonstrated a condition and that 
you have made observations of some value.  What I do wonder about is the 
claims that

1. Your condition is the same CCD that the US reports
2. Your claim that vitamin C is the answer.

As I say, I wonder.  I am not saying you are wrong, but that there is no 
proof and no independent confirmation of your claims.  You have proven 
your experience in your own situation, but we have no idea that your 
experience will generalise out to other operations.

Has anyone confirmed your observations in other operations and confirmed 
that VC works for them?  That would add to the weight of evidence on 
your side.

> I would like to see more progress on the problem and I really hate
 > it when special interest groups try to hijack the agenda

There is a huge amount of money in CCD research in the US and we have 
seen some fights over it and CCD has been a money-maker for some 
commercial interests.

Care for some ice cream?

What do I have in my bees?  Is it the same syndrome that you have?  I'm 
curious.  My collapse was sufficiently rapid that I did not have the 
presence of mind to observe closely, since I did not know what the 
outcome would be and figured it was just a few hives, not the whole yard.

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