Bob Harrison quoted from the Speedy Bee (July 2008):

> "Based on discussions with the German authorities, the EPA 
> believes this incident (neonicotinoids Germany incident) 
> is not related to CCD. ALTHOUGH PESTICIDE EXPOSURE IS ONE 
> OF FOUR THEORETICAL FACTORS ASSOCIATED WITH CCD THAT THE 
> U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE IS RESEARCHING"

> What part of the above do you have trouble understanding ?

There's no misunderstanding at all, unless anyone was
hazy on the meaning of the word "THEORETICAL".  :)

MaryAnn Frazier has worked like a dog on the pesticide
residues and analysis issue, and she does not have even
faint dots to connect.  Yes, it is true that USDA intends
to keep looking at the possibility that pesticides might
be involved, but CCD is clearly a pathogen problem, one
that does not correlate to any single pesticide, class
of pesticides, or specific combination of pesticides.

MaryAnn has not yet published any results, but she has
been very open with her preliminary findings, as is easy
to reach.  Why not argue with her about why she hasn't
found even a lame excuse for blaming pesticides of any
sort, neonicotinoids included?  I hate to subject her
to such hectoring as you directed at me, but perhaps 
her own words in her own voice will seem more 
authoritative than mine.

>> And high losses have continued in France even after 
>> the ban of the pesticide, illustrating neatly that 
>> the original accusations were misplaced.
 
> I have a list of France beekeepers which say the opposite.

Ask them to explain the losses they've had since the
pesticide was banned, then.  The statistics are around
somewhere, as growers are trying to get the pesticide
"unbanned", and are waving the figures around.

>> Professor Joe Cummins...

> If you can not silence the opposition then attack their 
> creditability. 

This is a somewhat personal attack upon me, and is
thereby unacceptable behavior.  Manners, please.

Joe Cummins' qualifications are easy to verify, and
his work is easy to find in any citation database.
Peter Borst and I have each independently checked out 
the CV of Mr. Joe Cummins, and a review of his writings 
show him to be an activist who does no actual research 
to support his claims, one who publishes no peer-reviewed 
papers to support his claims.

Yes, he taught school some time ago, but he is retired
now.  He is claiming credibility he simply does not have.
It is not an "attack" to accurately describe someone's actual
qualifications. (Peter, care to add more on this?)  

> One has to wonder how many bee kills in the U.S. have been 
> exactly like the Germany cases?

I haven't heard of any, and the amount of pesticide applied
here in the US is much less than was used in the German 
incident.  0.5 mg rather than 1.25 mg per seed.  The other
difference here is that the seed are treated consistently
by larger centralized plants, so there is less chance for
variation.  If the pesticide failed to adhere to the seeds,
it would be very clear in lots of places that something
was wrong.  Note that everyone wants the pesticide to
stick to the seed, as this is the only place it will
protect against the rootworm and other pests.

> Jim says that it was because of not applying a polymer seed 
> coating known as a "sticker". I agree in the Germany case.

Please don't paraphrase me incorrectly.  I did NOT say that
no polymer was applied.  I said it was applied incorrectly,
and did not keep the pesticide attached to the seeds.
Big difference.

> News flash to Jim so maybe he will understand why U.S. 
> beekeepers are upset with our EPA.

Jim writes many of the news flashes, so he is well aware
of beekeeper feelings toward the EPA.  Most of the 
run-around starts with the EPA having ceded the
enforcement part of their job to the States, who are
often the worst offenders themselves.

 
> quote from the above EPA memo:
> "Although the formulation used in the U.S. also does not 
> require a "sticker" on corn seed , it is typical practice 
> to use "stickers on corn seed in the U.S."
> 
> DOES NOT REQUIRE A STICKER!

Calm down - no one in their right mind would try to simply
mix the pesticide in a pail of seeds, as that would not
protect all the seeds properly.  The "sticker" is the
only way to assure a consistent per-plant dose.

> So far I have not found a single farmer which is using 
> pesticide treated corn seed with a polymer seed coating. 
> Still trying! ACTUALLY THE FARMERS SAY THEY WERE NEVER 
> OFFERED OR TOLD THEY NEEDED A STICKER.

A simple web search shows that a number of outlets have
been offering corn pre-treated with the exact chemical
used in the German incident, and of course, using a
"sticker".  Here's just one:

http://www.icorn.com/corn-treatment-poncho.aspx

And they say here:

http://www.icorn.com/treatment-corn.aspx

"All hybrids come pre-treated with Poncho 250 at no 
additional charge."

So, my conclusion would be that the farmers you talked
to were unaware that the seeds that they bought were
pre-treated (using the polymer "sticker") and they can't
tell the difference!


Other outlets include:
http://pfisterhybrid.com/index.cfm?pageID=19
http://www.garstseedco.com/GarstClient/GarstNews/news.aspx?NewsItem=10016
http://www.dahlmanseed.com/corn.html
http://www.doeblers.com/05%20WEB/05%20WEB%20PONCHO.pdf
http://www.dahlcoseeds.com/pages/agronomy.html
http://www.lgseeds.com/lg_tech/tech_91.pdf

I could go on, but anyone can use Google (except it
appears, John McCain).


Bayer's got a whole "program" for growers:
http://www2.bayercropscience.ca/poncho/Index.aspx


So if no one is using this seed, there are a lot of very sad
salesmen and distributers out there sitting on massive
unsold inventories of the treated seeds.

> You have to be pretty naive to believe the neonicotinoids are 
> not killing  bees in the U.S. in certain areas!

No, the naive view is always the one that believes something 
without even a shred of hard data to back up the belief.  

If there are neonicotinoid pesticide kills in the US, they 
are certainly not due to treated seeds.  They are more likely 
to be cases where neonicotinoids are SPRAYED.  That's the 
thing about seed treatments - no spraying.  I like that, 
and anyone who thinks about it for even a moment will too.

The reason that the German incident made the news at all
was that the event was highly improbable and unusual.
That's why it was considered "newsworthy".

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