James Fischer <[log in to unmask]> said:

>> The question is, what does the bee want to bring attention to.
>> Some sort of cryptic compass direction to the source or attention
>> to the odor of the source?
>
> The "compass direction"  is not at all "cryptic".  Any child of 10 with an
> observation hive can watch the dances, transpose the bee dances into
> a distance/direction vector, go to the location cited, and count the
> visiting bees.  People have been verifying this over and over for years.

James -

Let me first start out by saying I'm not an expert in the study of bee
dances. What I have done, though, is read through *all* the articles that
are posted on Mr. Wenner's web pages
(http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm) and most of the book,
ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY, by Wenner and Wells, and I find overwhelming
evidence that should cause everyone to stop and question the von Frisch
theory as most have all too willingly embraced it over the years as fact.

While I have not personally done testing of the "compass direction" that the
dance is supposedly showing, from reading accounts in Wenner's published
work, I would have to say it is nowhere near as straight forward and clear
as you put it, "any child of 10" could interpret the dance. From the way you
talk, I assume you *have* done such verifying?

> Regardless of individual opinions, recent work with "Robo-Bee" by
> Thomas Seeley, of Cornell University (and, I am sure, others who's
> names I do not know) tends to remove what little doubt might have
> remained about the "dance vs odor" question.

You got me on this one, I have no knowledge of Mr. Seeley's "Robo-Bee" or
what useful data it gives us.

> If odor had anything to do with recruitment, then Robo-Bee would be
> unable to recruit any bees at all.  Since Robo-Bee can recruit bees
> to hitherto unknown locations, it follows that "dance" and a sample
> of nectar is the minimum information required to recruit other foragers.

Not sure I understand this. It would be one thing if the "Robo-Bee" could
recruit bees (and it should be able to recruit the majority of a sample
group) with *just* a dance but you mention a sample of nectar is used too.

> The way that the statements are made seems to be an attempt
> to discredit bee dance in general (a consistent theme of Dr. Werner's),
> simply because the round dance does not include vectors.

It's interesting that you suggest Dr. Wenner takes such an extreme viewpoint
on this issue of dance, yet you hold and defend a viewpoint that is even
more extreme and narrow (odor has no bearing on bee recruitment through
dance), in spite of the volume of research by Wenner, Wells and others that
raise a big red flag. Nowhere has Wenner discredited the bee dance in
general. Regarding specific interpretations of the dance, yes.

> How come a part-timer/side-liner like me has to point this sort of basic stuff
> out?

Perhaps it's not as basic as you make it out to be. I'm glad you pointed it
out anyway. I highly recommend you read Wenner and Wells book to get a
fuller understanding of their position, and tests performed.

Regards,
Barry