>Most who have been down the no treatment road in the past say that they were doing fine for three years, then "Bang".  we all keep hoping and many of us keep dipping a toe into the water.  

I have a friend who tried no treatment. In her 3rd year [last fall] I persuaded her to do a mite count [Medhat's shaker]. She was WAY over threshold and she had DVW on some bees. She treated with oxalic vapor immediately, then with Apistan. Her bees survived the winter and are doing good this spring. I'm sure they would have perished last winter without treatment. 

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