>I have to say that I found your post very disappointing.

I'm not surprised.  Many find your post disappointing, too, but that is not 
the issue.   It's not about you -- or me for that matter.  It's about ideas, 
not people.

That is one reason why we request on BEE-L that writers avoid
attribution lines and avoid addressing individuals by name since this list 
is about *ideas*, not personalities and personal sensitivities.

No sacred cows.  No political correctness.  No holds barred, and anyone 
can join in on any side or the middle anytime.  Or change the subject 
(With a new subject heading, please).

>Remnants?  Extinct?  As I am sure that you know, A.m.m. is found over a
>large part of northern Europe.

I see.  Some vestiges of it are found in America and Hawaii, too.  I say 
vestiges, because the world is not a museum and and nature does not 
ask us to practice eugenics.  Should we save them, too, and expel or 
extinguish the later immigrants and exclude any future dilution?  Sure 
sounds similar to the logic behind ethnic cleansing to me.  (I am against 
ethnic cleansing, personally, although it does have its advocates).

Common sense tells us not to extinguish species or strains for reasons 
which can be presented as practical, but reconsituting and "purifying" 
strains looks to many of us to be of no useful purpose.  Not that this 
is necessarily a bad thing, since ultimately all our efforts are in vain.
Some just seem more frivolous than others.  This, to me, is one of those.

> It is far from extinct, but is endangered due to the activities of 
>humans - not 'nature'.  And what rights do we have to endanger a 
>species or sub-species?

A little bit of logic is a dangerous thing, especially when in close proximity 
to rhetoric like that.  What right do we have to do anything?

Humans are part of nature AFAIK.  Some may disagree.

>>Nature seems to be indifferent or perhaps unaware of its importance...

>Would one expect 'nature' to have awareness?

That is a figure of speech.  Of course not, and that is actually the point I
was making, thanks.

> ...but these are natural events over which we have no control, not
>intervention by man - which is what we are talking about when discussing
>conservation here.

Exactly, and I contend that 'conservation' is often a cloak for intervention 
which cannot be justified by logic and reason.

>>so it would seem that "conservation" is a human concept in response to a
>>problem perceived by humans -- and not at all natural.

>  ...but here we are trying to conserve something, not from natural
>events, but from the activities of beekeepers who, for their own perceived
>personal gain, are introducing exotic sub-species to an area.  

I think it is a pretty safe bet that A.m.m was introduced and that various 
other bees have been imported over the milennia and that this is just the 
latest episode.  

> On a broader scale, we are all trying to conserve honeybees generally 
> following the unnatural disaster of varroa - again caused by man's greed; 
> would you also argue against that?

Of course, I'll argue against anything so simplistic and rhetorical.  Do you 
know for sure how varroa arrived on your shores, and how often?  My 
understanding is that it can arrive by hitch-hiking undetected on ships.

>I think that Peter Borst got it right:

>>Ideally, conservation would be simply getting out of The Way.

I agree.  Peter is, however, speaking of an ideal, and knows full well that in the 
real world, things are not "ideal", but rather a series of compromises.  We often
discuss that fact.  In fact he was pointing that out, I thought.

>Getting in the way seems to me to be what we do best - by moving genetic
>material (plants, animals - including bees, and diseases) all around the
>world in a way that either would not have happened in nature, or would have
>happened so slowly that there would have been time for things to adapt and
>evolve. 

I agree with that and don't see it changing soon.

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