Hello Mike & All,
Mike makes some good points but his mindset was the mindset when varroa
first arrived. Did not work then. Those which used the method usually went
bankrupt. The bee lab in Baton Rouge asked U.S. beekeepers to send survivor
stock. The "live and let die" method was tried for a few years but was a
total failure. Dr. Harbo then decided to discover why and did.

Now after 20 years of living with varroa and the introduction of varroa
tolerant stock from Russia and the bee labs etc. we are seeing varroa
tolerant stock. 20 years ago the method  suggested by Mike did not work. I
set yards aside and tried the methods he suggests. Total failure. Today the
beekeeper will have better luck *in my opinion*mainly because  20 years of 
bees susceptible
to mites bees are gone! Also beekeepers have been introducing queens into 
their
yards for almost two decades with some varroa tolerance.

I guess we will never know if seeing more varroa tolerance happened because
of the two decades of varroa in the U.S.or our breeding programs.

I can share that the bees i ran 20 years ago could not handle varroa at all. 
I had
two close friends which left all hives untreated but finally reached for
apistan when only a few percent of the hives had bees still alive!

I was never a big gambler so I treated and saved the time and expense of
replacing all the hives.

 The "live and let Die" method of solving the varroa issue 20 years ago 
actually caused many commercial beekeepers to go bankrupt. Too few survivors 
and in most instances (quickly learned by Harbo & Harris at the Baton Rouge 
Bee lab) the daughters of the survivor breeder queens were NOT varroa 
tolerant.

Mike said:
  It is quite easy; you just make a point  of identifying and
> multiplying your best stocks, and taking out the worst.

I agree with the above philosophy as a general rule. I cull hard! More than 
any beekeeper I
have ever been around!
However I am not a professional queen breeder so I buy the queens from those
doing the best selection.
Although some on BEE-L love the "walk away split" (which I think Mike might
be advocating) I do not,
I have always been able to buy a better queen than I can produce but I can
always raise a cheaper queen myself and in some years get very good queens
but I need queens in March in Missouri and we do not even have mature drones
then so I must buy queens in early spring.

 Gradually your
> stock becomes capable of taking care of the mites itself, and  after a few
> years they are no more than a very minor nuisance.

The above paints varroa with a very broad brush! In commercial beekeeping
and the constant rearing of huge amounts of brood for most of the year I
have yet to find a bee which will tolerate varroa without treatment. I have
had bees (mostly Russian and hygienic) which will tolerate varroa for a
number of years without treatment but when those same bees are placed in the
constant brood rearing cycle of migratory commercial beekeeping varroa rises
to levels needing treatment.

Most of us see varroa control as the key to healthy bees today. Virus issues 
are being seen in hives with even low varroa counts. When varroa loads are 
high from my experience so are virus issues.

Varroa control is both expensive in treatment cost and labor cost but I have
yet to find another option for my operation. I still keep hoping and an open
mind!

> Mike said:
>.  As soon as you act to keep alive a faltering colony, you
> preserve and send into the next generation genetic combinations that
> should  have
> been eliminated.

I agree Mike!

I think we are more in agreement than not Mike but thought I would respond
to your post as it seems the list did not. Are you from the U.K.?

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison
commercial beekeeper
Missouri , U.S.A.

             ***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software.  For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html

Access BEE-L directly at:
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A0=BEE-L