>You know, Randy, that there are even so many field studies that show
harmfulness effects on the lethal and sub lethal level.

Thanks Ghislain, could you please specifically cite those studies, so that
we can then knowledgeably discuss them?

>But are you saying that things which happen in labs - measured and under
control - are not valuable?

Is this a rhetorical question?  I perform lab studies myself.  Of course
lab studies, if properly performed (which many aren't) are of value.  But
it is not until the rubber hits the road in the field that we can see
whether they are truly applicable in "real life."

The discussion on the neonics is not about winning an argument.  It should
be about properly discussing the data at hand--all of it!  What I find is
that those with an anti-neonic bias pick and chose their studies, and
ignore the robust independent field studies that time and again find no
demonstrable negative effects upon honey bees from properly applied seed
treatments.

I certainly do not wish this discussion to end, because the possibility
exists that at any time we will find that there are indeed unacceptable
negative effects.  But the treatments have now been used for over a decade,
and such effects have not yet been demonstrated, despite a vast number of
studies attempting to do so.

Clearly, neonics have harmful effects upon the targeted pest species.  I
suspect that there are also effects upon nontarget predatory species, and
possibly on native pollinators.

However, this is a beekeeping discussion group.  Until I see field studies
that demonstrate harmful effects upon honey bees, there is simply little
ammunition for the argument against seed treatments by beekeepers.

-- 
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
www.ScientificBeekeeping.com

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