?
> I've said it many times, Nosema by itself may not be so bad.  We've
> several sets of samples where the Nosema levels were off the charts, but
> the  bees
> looked good.

We called nosema apis the silent killer and many beekeepers did not treat.
Fumidil B was advertised to protect against the older forager bees dying two
weeks premature and helping bees in cold climates winter better. Years ago
Fumidil sold for less than $20 (U.S.) a bottle and even then was a
significant expense for the commercial beekeeper. Few checked spore counts
( except for me) and the makers were happy as the bucks were rolling in.
The beekeepers which did not treat for nosema might (or might not) produce
less honey and see a higher amount of over winter problems.

Then enters nosema ceranae and things change. Nosema issues in late summer
when the bees are trying to raise winter bees. *POSSIBLY* the most critical
time of the year for bees being overwintered in the Midwest.

>
> All I can go on is data - and as you know, our data says at least one
> virus
> plus Nosema seems to deliver a one-two punch.  I suspect Nosema may be
> something like varroa mites - its the combination that's deadly.

Maybe I am one of the beekeepers with the most experience with nosema
ceranae. What I see when spore counts get high is bees with a belly ache.
They quit taking syrup and most times end up dead in the feeder because they
are starving because the bee can not take in syrup( Dr. Eric Mussen).

I keep hearing about hives with high spore counts which *appear* normal but
*in my opinion* keep watching and the hive will eventually crash *unless*
the beekeeper intervenes.

Some hives ( 50%) will never turn around and I have found that watching the
others slowly return to normal effects my bottom line so depopulating and
disinfecting comb and starting fresh with a new swarm makes sense.

Could a virus be the reason nosema ceranae is so hard to control. Maybe but
will never be proven for sure and research has shown from Spain that nosema
ceranae by itself kills hives.

To sum up:
With nosema apis we mainly saw a loss of older field bees but when heavy
brood rearing was going on hard to notice or some poor wintering. You were
never sure the cost of the fumidil was worth the price.
No way to tell as far as the dying of the older foragers as they died away
from the hive. If they returned and were tossed out the entrance than a side
by side study would prove what the maker claimed about using or not using
fumidil.

With nosema ceranae we see problems in the Midwest right at the time the
main honey flow ends and the bees need to start rearing winter bees. Not a
time we ever saw nosema apis issues.

In my opinion many of the overwintering issues comes from too small of
clusters in late winter *after the summer - non winter * bees have died
caused by hives with mid gut issues (queens?) not doing what bees do in late
summer and fall which is raise winter bees using the shorter daylight as a
cue to begin the survival process.

When bees stop doing what bees have been doing for eons then there are
consequences. I believe that the bees many times not storing the fall honey
they used to when flowers are plentiful can be traced back to bees with mid
gut problems.

A researcher jumping out of his truck and taking samples and saying the hive
with high nosema spore counts *at the time* appears normal is a far cry from
the beekeeper which has started the hive from a nuc or package and has
monitored the progress all season.

My opinion:
I believe to improve bee health today we need to solve the midgut health
issue. Toss fumigillin in the trash bin and research a new and better (
CHEAPER) product but by now the 8 million research dollars has been used.


> As per treating with fumagillin - that's why Malcom Sanford and I are
> looking for OLD bottles of the stuff.  In a conversation with Dr. Robb
> Cramer,
> MT State Univ, last summer, Robb mentioned that producing the antibiotic
> was a bit challenging, and he wondered whether the product, as produced
> today,
> is the same as in the past.

Instead of wasting time doing the above why not simply research a new
product?

Unlike helping beekeepers get legislation so we can freely use formic &
oxalic you could make some serious bucks * and in my opinion* go a long way
to returning U.S. bees ( worlds?) to their former health.

my two cents worth.

I deeply appreciate you being willing to come on BEE-L and openly discuss
current issues!

bob

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