Hi all

Peter Borst wrote:
>You have claimed that small cells and nutrition would take
care of our problems. Now you are championing flipping
frames around.

Reply:
Yes, I am. We are fine tuning our bees more and more
naturally and as we learn more watching them, it is a
natural progression to follow, that is to want to keep them
even better in a harmonious system without the usage of
various treatments of chemicals, drugs, essential oils,
FGMO and even fumigation acids. Also no artificial feed may
I add here!

If rearranging the frames to fine tune our bees makes the
bees key in more harmonious and interact better then we
have bitten the bullet and have jumped in and done it.

Problem is so many are afraid to make management changes
for the benefit of the bees, they only make them to benefit
themselves and profit. and the faster and cheaper the
better. IN the long run, (though already we are seeing
benefits of much odd stress reduced) watching and learning
from the positioning changes I fell we will learn much more
about our bees and how to better manage them harmoniously,
like yin and yang.

Peter further wrote:
Are your bees sick and suffering so that you would go to
the trouble of trying this completely novel and unproven
technique to save them?

Reply:
Nope! In fact only picked up two supers maybe of comb to
remelt back down with any fouls or other combined. So I
don't they they are very sick. Also see no mites really,but
then don't have a union card to watch for them, though have
had some cattle and horses and bears and vandals (human)
into them or shooting them for practice.

Peter continued:
>Why are they suffering? Because of beekeeper caused
stress?
>And if they are *not suffering* due to the results of your
>biological beekeeping program, then why would you need
*still another* technique on top of all the others?

Reply:
I am a beekeeper and into the fine art of beekeeping and
just want to do it better for the bees and if it helps us
too in the long run, then so much the better, after all,
aren't we stewards of bees for Nature and God for all his
works? Aren't we supposed to try to do things right and
harmoniously?

Peter Borst continued:
If they were not suffering before you turned the combs
around, then how can they now be better?

Reply:
Because I looked and noted the oddities and changed the
positioning and when I when back on monthly inspection it
was corrected/better.

If Peter yours are suffering before you dope them, don't
you look when done to see if they are better or how do you
tell you are making progress with your doping methodology?
Do your bees get progressively more healthly or sicker?

Ours just keep getting better and better as we fine tune
them now! Just have this shortage of comb problem, since we
shook down all hives, so everyone would know comb changing
back to natural was a major step in the process, along with
total diet of natural pollen and honey.

In case you don't know Peter we try to leave ample pollen
and honey stores with our bees like tithing back for all
the work they do for us in pollenation for our environment,
besides giving us their extra for production.

Peter then added:
I am still waiting for an answer to this one. Ms. Lusby
challenged us to discuss her theory, so I think it is fair
to point out its weaknesses. Without going into the many
claims, I will focus one one: that misaligned combs
contribute to premature supersedure.

Reply:
Yes indeed it does. Misalignment can cause supercedure. Who
wants to lose good queens by misalignment during
rearranging of combs backwards into the broodnest in trying
to build them up. Commercial field workers need to be
trained in this aspect I would think. They need to learn
left and right sides of foundation and combs and how to use
them for the benefit of the company owner they work for.

Peter went on:
As I mentioned, many people lament over excessive
supersedure (though as Dave pointed out, if the queens are
junk -- then supersedure is probably a good thing). The
problem is: no data.

Reply:
Yep, no data. But a good queen should last at least 1 year
and probably 2 years. They used to! Why not now? So if they
are good queens and they are superceeding maybe the frames
are out of alignment, especially if chemicals are not
supposedly hurting them and causing them to superceed, if
one can believe that various dopes do not hurt our bees in
some way.

Peter went on:
No one I know has marked queens and tracked the actual rate
of supersedure. It's one of those "it seems as if" sort of
things. Lots of opinions; few facts.

Reply:
Mark queens and clip them is cruel and unusual punishment
for queens isn't it? It certainly isn't natural and
harmonious with Nature.

Cannot you tell looking at a queen if it is new or old by
looking at the queens body and conformity? Shouldn't that
alone track the actual rate of supercedure? If supercedure
rate is all you are after? Why harm the poor queen, what
injustice has she done you to be made to suffer so?

Peter continued:
In order to study supersedure, one would have to requeen
all hives with marked queens, or at least mark every queen
early in the season. Then these queens would have to be
monitored during the season. This would establish a
baseline supersedure rate.

Reply:
Like I said above, cannot you tell a new queen from an old
one by looking? Certainly you are expert enough to know the
differences by looking! Shouldn't these differences be
taught to beekeepers so queens don't have to be mutilated.

Just put in the new queens and note date with body
confirmity markings on tergit graf, etc.

Next, the
"anti-supersedure" study would be undertaken, -- say:
change the frame orientation. This would be done on half
the hives. Half would have to be managed in the regular
way. Then, if the rate of supersedure departed from the
previous year in the test hives but not in the control
hives, you could say you were on to something.

Reply:
Well, this part sounds like you are thinking about how to
learn about the problem. Good for you Peter!

Peter added:
One last comment: to refer to natural or unnatural
beekeeping is to move into the realm of philosophy. Some
would say that any beekeeping is unnatural.

Reply:
This is true, but then to also move into the realm of
philosophy is to move full circle into the realm of Nature
and God, and the belief that we are stewards and guardians
of all things on Earth, as was in the beginning and ever
shall be. Much is to be said for beliefs, for it is from
them all our science and technology has come from. It is
the common beginning tie that binds bees and religion and
all of us together, country to country.

Is beekeeping unnatural? Is keeping any stock unnatural? Is
fishing then even unnatural? Is any harvest then unnatural?
Stewardship, though, I think is allowed and bees certainly
fall into that category.

Peter wrote:
 Either everything we do is natural, since it is based
on nature, -- or we left nature behind years ago, at what
point who can say? Bees lived for eons in caves and hollow
trees, and mankind spent millions of years camping out,
without the benefit of gas or electricity. Human activity
now affects almost every corner of the
planet. (See Bill McKibben's "The End of Nature".)

Reply:
Peter, this is a frame of mind, for even camping out, our
forefathers had to eat and hunt and gather and in a way
manage their domain. The problem is to do it harmoniously
so life and evolution goes on.

Somehow with bees today and all the various dopes used to
try to keep them alive, something seems to have gone wrong
in a bad bad way, and add to this,quick and easy management
concepts that are money motivated, it seems we have taken
too much and are now are reaping the results of poorly
managed animals and plants and bad stewardship in keeping
all life harmonious. Sad, just so sad to see!

Peter finished:
Real "natural beekeeping" might be knocking wild honey
combs down with a stick, no buckets please.

Reply:
If that is what you feel, then you are welcome to it Peter.
I myself feel I can do better in learning by watching and
doing and our bees certainly seem to be responding as we
learn more.

Try the small cell and repositioning and real food for the
bees and tithing back to them for all their hard work. You
may end up liking it!

Best regards to you,

Dee A. Lusby



__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com