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From:
"Alden P. Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Discussion of Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:53:58 -0500
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Alden Marshall
 
 
On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:09:05 -0600 "Excerpts from BEE-L"
<[log in to unmask]> writes:
>From:          Allen Dick <[log in to unmask]>
>To:            [log in to unmask]
>
 
>
>Fall populations can be reduced by reducing the hive volume. At least
>it
>seems that way.  When we've reduced large hives in the fall -- I'm
>thinking of when we ran two queen hives in 8 standards right through
>to
>September 1st -- to two standard brood chambers, we found that the
>bees
>would not all fit and they hung out all over the place.  A few days
>later,
>the clusters fit nicely into the hives; the clusters were big, but not
>as
>amazingly so as one would expect.  And no, skunks didn't eat the extra
>ones AFAIK :)
>
>Now, I am *assuming* that the bees diminished in numbers, rather than
>just
>crowding together, but others have said the same: extra bees just seem
>to
>mysteriously go away (and most assume it is the older ones) when the
>volume is reduced in the fall.  David Eyre said something about a bee
>cluster being like a tropical fish (it is well known that the ultimate
>size to which a fish kept in a tank will grow is related to the tank
>size.
> Move a fish to a bigger tank and it will often grow, even after
>having
>seemed to be full grown).  I like that analogy, although it can get
>you
>into trouble if used to excess or at the wrong time of year.
>
>> Here, we still argue whether a large population is more likely to
>> survive  a Montana winter (and as such justify the extra honey
>needed).
>> Again, I  like strong colonies.  Our records show a much more
>> consistent and  predictable performance record from strong,
>> over-wintering colonies (but  that probably reflects the vagaries of
>> keeping bees in this geographical area).  With the advent of the
>mites,
>> this may be even more important -  since most losses occur during
>the
>> fall, winter, and early spring.
>
>That is well worth repeating.  The other factor besides sheer numbers
>of bees -- and one which is often neglected since we cannot easily
>'eyeball' individual bees in the field -- is the age and nutritional
>level
>of the members of that population, regardless of size.  If we were
>looking
>at cows or horses, we could *easily* tell if a herd was likely to
>survive
>winter in good shape: if the herd members were young and well fed we
>could
>see that; if they were old and mangey with bones showing in fall, we
>could
>see that too.  With bees being as small as they are, we mostly just
>notice
>if they are numerous or not. Nonetheless, the experienced eye can in
>fact
>tell a lot about the quality of individual bees and whether they are
>'fat'
>or 'skinny', young or old.  This is much more important than sheer
>numbers, assuming that the numbers are adequate for survival.
>
>Hoping to hear more about shutting queens down.
>
>Allen
>---
        We (New Englanders) also as a rule find spring buildup more
robust with larger over wintered clusters, especially those of us in the
pollination service. Of course the potential for swarming has to be
accounted for. Often some of the problem is solved in equalizing or by
bleeding off frames of brood to make starters.
 
        It has rather recently occurred to me that one may be able to rid
the colony of the older bees at the ed of the honey flow. If this were
done nectar being bought into the hive would essentially cease and in
most cases influence the house bees to shut down the queen.
 
        What If ____ To get rid of the foragers a super, full or
partially full of empty frames were placed on the bottom board with a
double screen board on top and the colony stacked on top of this with a
top or lower entrance faced to the rear. The old bees would of course not
have access to the stores and could not be fed from above.
What provisions  the lower super would bring in would be limited and
probably be consumed rather quickly.
        There are (at least) a couple of concerns one would have with
this concept as I perceive it
1. Would so many bees leave that a lot of this desirable late brood would
chill?
 
2. Would there be enough pheromone leakage to make the isolated bees
think they still had some resemblance of a queen so they wouldn't start
looking for another entrance (in the rear)?
 
3. What percentage of these isolated bees would be considered young
desirables?
 
        In our neck of the woods diversion super probably would not be
removed until next spring. I would use a honey super for this purpose and
just store it on the inner cover until time for the honey flow. Unless
someone on this net has tried it and advises I guess it will have to be
another experiment to put on my list.
 
Alden Marshall
Hudson, NH 03051
[log in to unmask]
tel. 603-883-6764
 
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