> The reason for the 2 queen system I described is that it's often
> found that comb honey production over 2 brood boxes is not very
> successful.  By putting a second queen in the upper b.c. you force
> the bees up into the sections rather than letting them sulk and plug
> up that upper b.c.; they have no choice.
 
Yes, although I know quite a few people who do actually make comb over
two brood boxes -- and nice comb it is too.  I always found it too
chancey.  I think it depends where you live and your timing.
 
I also know some who use two hives side by side with the supers (on
excluders) straddling both, and an adapter lid on each side. That's
similar to your two queen system in some ways.
>
> This is in contrast to the "traditional" 2-Q colony as developed and
> promoted by Farrar et al..  In those you are supposed to let each
> queen have 2 brood boxes, and super above that.  Talk about tall
> colonies!  I can't imagine how he and others managed so many
> considering the labor and lifting.  I think it was even recommended
> that you reverse the brood chambers, above and below;  egad!  Wonder
> how many tipped over...  Some folks swear by this plan, tho'.
 
I played with that too, but found no benefit where I live.
>
> Allen - on your 1-brood chamber comb honey methods - the package
> method sounds really decent and straightforward - with a new queen
> like that swarming isn't such a probability (if first-year queens
> are indeed not likely to swarm even when crowded).  [Question - do
> you bother with an excluder?
 
No.  Sometimes I wished I did because we would switch boxes -- bees
and all -- between hives and I think sometimes the queen would be up
in one looking a round, so we'd lose her.
 
> Brood or pollen end ever end up in the
> sections?]
 
No. (Well, *very* seldom -- maybe once in 1000 boxes and then only a
few drones around the edge of a section).  We'd dig them out and put
the section back for finishing -- always came out perfect, too.
 
> I wish I was still doing sections so I could try it!
> Even the Miller/Killion plan requires supplying a new young queen
> after destroying swarm cells a couple of times and crowding down
> into one b.c.   Labor intensive, that.   Then you have all these
> leftover brood boxes/combs and bees and the problem of what to do
> with them. Killions just stacked them up on new stands but it seems
> kind of haphazard to me.
 
Well, we were in it to make money and any ideas that did not pay got
forgotten quickly.  We don't pride ourselves on the largest crop per
hive.   We try for the largest profit per operation.
 
Those with fewer colonies, and/or more energy and brains than I have
developed elaborate systems and rules, but we have to keep things
simple, and just do what the bees demand.  It's usually pretty plain
when you lift the lid -- often before.
 
> Starting with a new queen/package and letting them expand naturally
> up into working the sections sounds less intrusive, (easier!) and
> more constructive.
 
I always hate any operation that does drastic things to the bees and
undoes their work.
 
Spring splits or nucs work too.  I always figure that if it takes two
hives and no work to make 250 sections, I prefer that to using one
that is constant effort.
 
> So in your experience all that crowding down (a
> la Demuth) isn't always a requirement for sections?
 
We've done it many ways and if you understand what the bees need,
just about anything will work in a decent flow.  That's not to say
the method in question  isn't good, but just that it often (usually)
is not necessary for decent results.
 
Crowding is important at some points in the comb process, but defeats
you at others.  If we only knew how long the flow would be, we could
really let them out in the early part, and increase the crowding near
the end.
 
We just make sure that when we take a lid off and look -- day or
night -- there are always bees on all frames in all boxes at all
times (when we are producing comb).
 
A lot of bees will cluster in a very few boxes when there is only
foundation, but much more room is needed as comb fills the space, so
they naturally crowd as the comb finishes -- if you gave them the
right amount to work on.
 
Bees will build comb anywhere if they are crowded comfortably and
warm and have a good flow.  Too much empty space will defeat would-be
comb producers.  It is a good thing in extracted honey, but to finish
comb one has to keep things just a bit crowded.  It's not a stable
condition, so you have to keep watching.
 
We don't like to see too much hanging out either -- especially in the
morning.
 
Sorry, I don't think I'm writing too well this afternoon, but I hope
that what I'm trying to say is at least understandable.  Maybe we'll
write some more later...
 
 
 
Regards
 
Allen
 
W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper                                         VE6CFK
RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta  Canada T0M 1Y0
Internet:[log in to unmask] & [log in to unmask]
Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/>