paul
I don't disparrage what randy is doing and documeting.  My whole point was that it is special people that do that but the rest of us just look at what they are doing, grab the parts we think will help us and do what we do and what happens happens.  I read every study that others publish.  

Where I dissagree with what you are saying about resistants and keeping bees treatment free is here.  You say there is only one way to do something.  I say if somebody is doing something and it is working, I either have to call them a liar or believe them.  The person doing it knows what he is doing and what he is getting even if he does not know the how of it.

I don't dissagree with it could be something in the enviroment, the virus that are in the area or what is around them.  Even where they study hard they really mostly come up with theories of why it is working that have to be proved out.  Like I pointed out earlier, They know a certain population is reducing mite reproduction but don't know how.  They know seeleys bees are not handling it in the same way.  Seeley gives theories of why he thinks his bees are surviving based on best chance of what is happenning that he thinks helps them IE small hives, swarming, distance from other hives.  However the bees were doing that before mites also and I don't know if there was a die off in the beginning and it got better or if it just never got bad at all due to those things but believe it got bad then got better.

So, if we can all agree that every hive in america has mite pressure.  If we can agree that all mites vector virus.  If we can agree that every mite tries to propogate.  Then them things are the same.  If we can agree that mite kill bees, Then we should be able to agree just by the fact that the hive is still alive and is alive even though not being treated, then it has some form of resistance compared to the hive that is dead.  With or with out counts, the hive has mites and is alive is a form of proof.  Cut it any way you like, yes it may not live if moved, but it is living where it is.  My view is things can change and that is why when you look state by state, you can see some states have really high losses compared to others.  Some places might just be harder to rais bees then others.  But to infere that a person doing someting can not be doing it cause there is not proof may not be right either.  He knows what he is doing and doesn't even need to prove it if he is getting what he wants.  Yes he may not save the industery but that does not mean it is not happenning.  I think for saving the industery that randy is doing the right thing but I can also go to his site and pull up that he reconizes the other on a small scale is also happinning and that there is enough proof that it is no longer a extra ordinary claim.  I know randy will read this and take me to task if I am too far out of line on what I think I see on his site.

I have read study after study that give some things that they can measure but none that said they knew this was the answer or even that they knew exactly what they were measuring was being made to happen.  Many studies come up with the simular outcome but the bees taking a differrent path to get that out come.  So it is proof there is nobody with the answer but more that it is also true a guy has kept bees for four years and me two with only three hives dieing.  Mine might all die this year but it is defanatly not and extra ordinary claim that some are keeping bees with out treating and not doing it with a big breeding program though I admit, the backgound breeding may be like the arnot forrist if you are in the right or lucky location.

This is not to dissagree on a path where there is a need is come up with that has a good chance of making an improvement, it just does not out of hand write off other things that may not have been measured yet as actually happenning.
Cheers
gww

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