> what is 'fresh'?... I have carefully reviewed all of the publications and discussion made available to me and have never seen anything definitive about 'fresh'.  I assume the term refers to deterioration of the protein value (but someone please correct me if the reference is describing something else such as bacteria load).

Good question.  I have tried to get an answer to this, but it is complex, especially since we are not discussing just one product here, but many, and some with unknown ingredients and preservatives.

I am speaking of protein deterioration, but lipids also go rancid and there is mention of toxicity in the literature.  Bacteria are not much of a problem AFAIK in patties with adequate sugar content, but molds have proven to be a problem with some formulations. Andy Nachbaur at one time said here that supplements are better after some fermentation.  I don't know.  I suppose the deterioration rates would be different in yeast feeds compared to flour or protein extract based products.  Does sugar syrup admixture in finished patties slow the rate.  Dunno.

> For purposes of discussion, assume 'fresh' means that no more than 10% of the protein value has been lost. In time, measured after the patties are
formed, is three weeks 'fresh'? Six weeks? Three months? If the answer is six weeks or longer, I will guess that very few hobbyists or sideliners have a chance of getting 'fresh' patties from a distributor, so they are potentially wasting a fair amount of money.

I agree. I figure that six months for pre-made patties should be a safe mid point and that the decline in value is likely something approaching linear, with the day of manufacture being stated as 100% of value and a year and a half (18 months) being for sake of argument a 10% remaining point.  I'd hypothesize that possible toxicity could start somewhere around a year out and increase over time.  Time and temperature are factors, too.  These are just guesses -- opinions -- based on personal experience and reading and provided to hopefully stimulate discussion, and maybe bring forward more factual information.

I personally know of a situation where a sideline beekeeper received product that was well over a year old without any way of knowing.  He also paid a premium over factory price due to his order size.  I suggested he get some beekeepers together to pool orders next time. 

One of the problems is that many beekeepers think that feeding two or three patties is sufficient.  I tell anyone who will listen to feed as long as the bees will take it, stopping in the fall in cold winter areas. I also tell them to feed the cheapest known-good patty they can during the times when the bees are foraging because we are just  supplementing and not attempting a complete diet.  because they only feed a few, they pay a high price and don't get cheap shipping. 

If the beekeeper with 100 hives plans to feed two patties per hive, then he needs 200 patties.  That is a small order.  If he plans to feed 10, then that is 1,000 lbs and we are starting to talk volume.  If a few such beekeepers got together, they could have a pallet dropped somewhere convenient at factory price -- and possibly free shipping to boot!  They then have some leverage and get freshness and low price, and don't have to drive to a dealer to get it.

As for the cost?  Feeding does not cost, it pays.  Ten patties per hive will return you -- I'm betting -- at least five times the original cost in better bee health, better survival, and more honey.

There is a trade-off between freshness and shipment size, since many small shipments with a heavy product cost much more than one bulk shipment. That is one reason I encourage clubs and groups to organise to plan their feeding and order pallet-loads from the factory or distributor for direct and timely delivery.

I have personally tried to get the makers to date the bags or boxes with either a manufacture date or a "Best before" date, but they resist, fearing  that their stocking distributors will then holding a product that transparently drops in value over a matter of months and that will crimp sales.  We need all customers to ask for certification of manufacture date and keep pressing for that info to be printed on the container.  If we do, we'll get it.

I doubt we will ever know exactly how quickly any particular patty will deteriorate, so personally, I think "Just in Time" direct delivery should be the goal.  Working together, we can do this.

One way to ensure fresh product, BTW, is to order a custom mix.  That way, it won't be sitting waiting for you, but has to be made to order.

Then, we only need to worry about how diligent the factory and its suppliers is in obtaining fresh ingredients and in rotating warehouse stock. 

As for making our own supplement, on the farm, I've been there, done that and anyone can read about it in my open diary.  It can be done, but is not worth the hassle and risk.  

We know that if we mix our own we never have exactly the same amount of everything, and always have supplies running short or left over.  Since the need is seasonal, some supplies may sit in the back of the shop until next year at which time they will probably be used because we have them and don't know how else to get rid of them.  Whether we really believe they are good or not, most of us will convince ourselves they have some value and conveniently ignore the reports that old products can be harmful.  Additionally, the small lots most beekeepers buy typically come from some bee supply warehouse.  In some cases they may have been there, literally, for years.

A well-run factory should not have that problem, since the inventory is used at a good rate all year.  Nonetheless, products do sometimes wind up as leftovers and, for example, I know where there are two pallets of MegaBee sitting now for two years, untouched.  It was good feed two years ago, but what is it's value now?  If you want it, let me know.  I can swing you a deal.  I don't want it.  I would not feed it, or any old product except, perhaps, as dust for the bees to forage outside. 

             ***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software.  For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html

Access BEE-L directly at:
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A0=BEE-L