>> At that time when we had KBV formic  was used as a supplement treatment 
>> to be used in the season when strips are not used.

> "when the strips are not used" ... Are you saying you rotated yearly with 
> formic?

I think the 'seasons' reference is to spring or fall, not entire years.

> If so I believe this is a big problem.

You've got that right, and although formic *can* control varroa, it may also 
'control' your bee populations and your honey crop if not used correctly.

Formic is particularly hard to use it correctly when you put a huge single 
one-time dose on a hive and hope that you can control the release 
sufficiently (over a number of subsequent weeks) to get good control without 
doing damage to the hives.

A lot of people put a lot of work into that concept, over many years, and 
not everyone is convinced it can be accomplished reliably enough.  Many have 
given up on the concept after having mixed results: many successes, with 
random failures due to excessive and rapid release or slow release..

Where we are, in Alberta, weather is *very* unpredictable further out than 
five days, and that is iffy.  Although we may have conditions that fall 
within the parameters for success three times out of four, we may also have 
unexpected conditions come up out of season that either overdose the hive, 
or fail to release the formic at an efficious rate.

Randy has some discussion of this climate and weather window problem on his 
site, I seem to recall. I probably do too.  Both have charts with 
temperature bands and climate data showing very narrow windows of 
opportunity and risk.

> David vanderdusen has said that a formic treatment will control varroa for 
> four months ( presentation at the Austin ABF meeting).

I think he is talking specifically about his method.  There are many other 
methods of formic application, each with differing advantages and 
disadvantages.

Although his product has had some use in Alberta, beekeepers I have been 
visiting have decided after giving it a good try that they could not get the 
reliable control they need with it, and they don't find out until too late. 
All the commercial beekeepers whose yards I have visited lately (15?) have 
switched to the Dri-loc 50 padsfor the formic they use because they contain 
a controlled smaller dose which can be repeated as many times as indicated 
by monitoring, are cheaper, shorter-term and are less likley to damage brood 
than a single large application.  I think that the availability and 
effectiveness of Apivar has reduced interest in formic as well, so 
beekeepers are using formic to hit any tracheal mites thay may have and to 
back up the Apivar.

The single apllication method can reliably cut the varroa load in to 1/3 or 
1/4 in several days.  Repeated enough times, a predictable result is 
possible, since the weather in the immediate future is usually knowable, and 
a single miss is not catestrophic.

> I disagree with formic (based on my personal discussion with David...

I am sure that he can tell you the linitations of his particular product, 
but I think that you may wish to go back to the detailed discussions we had 
here on BEE-L about formic before that one commercial product became AFAIK 
the only legal formic option for US beekeepers to better understand formic 
acid itself and the various application methods.

There are other formic advocates.  Bill the Beekeeper from Kelowna published 
detailed literature on formic use some time back and mechanisms and the URL 
is here on BEE-L somewhere.

Formic acid can be applied in many ways, in many doses and has the unique 
ability to kill varroa in capped brood cells.  Its ability to control varroa 
depends on many factors.

> One needs to test and treat in fall to keep from having a *peak* in 
> spring. One needs to winter with as low a varroa load as possible to 
> winter better and also prevent coming out of winter with a high varroa 
> load.

I think we are all on the same page here.  In fact Medhat initiated a 
programme to ensure exactly that and the programme is ongoing here in 
Alberta at present.

> My personal observation is formic is not the best treatment when varroa 
> loads are high. Works poorly. It is also my observation you can get 
> excellent control with formic if you monitor and treat as needed.

Exactly true.  Unfortunately, "as needed" is almost impossible IMO with a 
single dose, unless you happen to be lucky enough that your situation and 
environment happens to fall within the product's design parameters, since 
AFAIK it is inflexible as to hive size and configuration, weather, etc.

We adapt to those factors here in Alberta by custom-designing our 
application using the small pads in ones or twos, depending on the 
circumstances and repeating as often as necessary depending on the results 
of the previous dose(s).  Release rates can be monitored easily, by 
observing the pads by feel and/or using a postal scale.

> David Vanderdusen said in California where beeks are brooding bees year 
> around three miteaway 2 treatments might be needed ( Austin ABF 
> presentations).

I thought I had heard of some using as many as four?

> ...do you disagree with what David V. is telling us?

I am sure David is being honest, and his product does work.  Sometimes and 
some places it works very well.

Let's not, however, confuse Miteawy II with formic acid itself, and let's 
not use the terms interchangeably.

In Canada, I think Miteawy use is a small and declining fraction of the 
total formic acid usage, if what I see is an indication, however I could be 
wrong.

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