> We can debate what you call it,  or what it is till the cow come home,  but until you show data that tested what I would call "known" carnis  vs  "known Itilians"  your just reading what you want to in the reports. I am guessing that  if you  include Oliveraz and Weavers you would need to add buckfast and saskatraz to the list.

Hi all

Back in 1982 I worked in the outfit then known as Wooten's Golden Queens; Shannon Wooten married Homer Park's daughter. They had what you would call typical golden Italians. Later in that decade I began selling queen cells by the thousands. For the breeders, I purchased New World Carniolans. Still, some people wanted golden Italians, so I found the yellowest queens I could and used them for breeders. 

I would say Weaver's queens are very distinct, both behaviorally and genetically. I believe the Buckfast bees in Ontario may be a consistent strain. I am not saying that your yellow bees are exactly the same as your Carnis. Yellow bees are bred to be yellow and they may not have any other worthwhile traits. Carnis are bred to be workhorses, and they may not appeal to everyone. 

What I am saying is that using genetic tools, the bees of the US are genetically so similar that you can't call them subspecies, nor should you call them Carniolans or Italians. That's why Sue Cobey coined the term "New World Carniolans. That's why they went back to Europe to get stock from the original source. That's why R Weavers started selling their "All American." 

The Buckfast was a designed hybrid bee; they use it in Ontario, Canada and I think they may have a good bee there. Danny Weaver claims his is a combination of multiple lineages, too (all four). To me the subspecies distinction is of dubious merit, at least in the US and other places where the honey bee is not native. 

The four main lineages (M, C, A & O) are distinct and can be identified using genetic tools. Ligustica and Carnica are both C-types and the countries they come from share a common border. So, they have probably mingled for centuries. I never saw any important difference, other than the color. I buy all of them and the all make honey if there is any.

PB

PLB

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