>From:    Michael Palmer <[log in to unmask]>
>Not really sure what "a huge consumption" means. My North American mongrels
>need about 80 pounds to make the winter.
>
The old beekeepers who used amm here beginning to middle of last century
left 12 kg (26 pounds) for winter. With my Buckfast-mongrel bees I leave
20 kg sugar. I'm talking dry weight sugar. I'm on lat 60, same as
Anchorage, so we got a long dark period here. But the long dark winter
keep the hives broodless for a longer time, and they do not consume much
until brood rearing starts up when light comes back in spring.

Vermont is on the same latitude as Italy, with a much shorter winter. I
believe the bees react to light more than temp. Your bees keep brooding
later in autumn and start up earlier in spring. They go into winter
stronger, and need more feed than mine during winter because they start
up while it's still winter temp outside. Some of the bees I used earlier
didn't start any brood production until they could fly on the first
flowers in spring. They wouldn't use up winter feed for brood, they
waited until there was nectar available.

This was safe Buckfast bees, you didn't have to worry much about them in
spring. But they didn't produce much on the early honey flow, they built
up in time for the main flow. So for some years now I have been
selecting for fast spring development and general vigor rather than
uniformity and quietness. This has resulted in 30% more honey, but also
the need for checking them through spring and feeding those needing it.
I also need more supers on the hives to give them space. Extra work and
material, but I find it worth it. My average is 200 pounds for the last
3 years.

From:    Dave Cushman <[log in to unmask]>

>The need for high numbers of bees leads to a requirement to have a larger
>winter population than the bees would choose for themselves and this in turn
>leads to unstable wintering and huge consumption of winter stores.

I must disagree here, Dave. The larger winter population will decrease food consumption until bees start brood rearing in spring. It's a matter of volume to surface ratio, each bee will need to generate less heat during winter in the larger cluster. It's another matter that amm winters far better than ligustica, but that is not due to the size of cluster.

>The winter stores have to be fed to the bees, which is time consuming and
>costly.

With the present difference between sugar and honey price here, I will gladly do the exchange. But the most important for me is to winter the bees on clean stores. This autumn we had a late flow of honey dew from conifers. Luckily I had started winter feeding before that, otherwise I would have many dead hives next spring.

>A tough bee that can work longer hours per day and still live for more
>working days than an Italian bee can gather a crop just as large, but with
>many fewer bees in the box

In the UK that might be true. It's not always here, I have had both
types of bees. In a situation where you have abundance of nectar easily
available and warm sunny weather, you just can't beat the numbers. I
have had lines of darker bees that fly in colder temps, got one breeder
that actually flew when it was drizzling this summer. They always have a
crop, even on a bad summer. But on a good summer they will not reach
what the more yellow hives produce.

--
Regards

P-O Gustafsson, Sweden
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