Hello Stan & All,
Stan said:
> But it hurts to read Bob's comments about the differences in longevity for
> corn vs cane.

My response is similar to one Stan & I might have in a private discussion.
One has to take the whole as taking parts out will make the discussion lose
meaning.

Things are never black & white but levels of gray. Syrup is a complex
subject.

What we do not know about feeding HFCS & sucrose is so vast it makes what we
do know seem absurd.

The first consideration Stan in the discussion is will I miss the shorter
longevity.

 I think the consensus today is that in colder areas bees winter better on
sucrose. ( at least Allen & I think so). So much I believe sucrose is worth 
the higher cost but maybe not for spring feeding.

However my friend Kirk Jones still feeds HFCS with success. However until I
started feeding sucrose I thought HFCS was working ok. Myself and Bell Hill
Honey switched at the same time and we saw improvement right away. We did
side by sides and saw the bees were doing better and living longer with
sucrose.

Bottom line in commercial beekeeping has  always been *in my opinion* do the 
benefits justify the
cost. Randy brings up blends. A few California friends use blends.
(HFCS/sucrose) with success. The question is maybe a blend can be made in
which longevity  is not effected. Maybe a user of blends on BEE-L (if any) 
will comment.

I must add that no *real proof* exists
that HFCS is a *serious* issue effecting longevity. no smoking gun.

If you and I sat down for an hour long discussion on the topic Stan you
might be more confused than if we had not. Time of year could very well
effect your choice of syrup. I have had good results feeding bags of Domino 
icing
mix (with starch) when the bees are flying in late spring. many say will
kill bees. I think not but would never winter bees on the product.

However what if your bees are in a weaken state then what effect does the 
choice of syrup make?

To look deeper this time of year many beeks move bees in daytime leaving all
the old foragers in the field.
Why feed billions of non winter bees which are going to die anyway ( cold
but a common practice).

In the above maybe longevity is not an issue.

Also what if one feeds HFCS right after the honey flow and then switches to
sucrose for the feed stored? What effect has the fall honey mixed in with
HFCS on wintering?

I could go on and on! I proposed such research was needed to the USDA-ARS 
but I was told there was not
enough interest as only commercial beekeepers are interested.

I picked up sucrose today and we feed hives all day. Mainly because rain has
set in and flash flood warnings are out for our area. Until the hives are
moved into a holding area rain and being able to get in to feed are serious
concerns. Once the hives are in a holding yard rain is of little concern.

I learned from a Kansas commercial beekeeper that the price of sucrose rose
last week to 51 cents a pound dry weight ( his last load of season) but
dropped Monday to the forty nine cents a pound I paid.
So when I buy again I will start getting price quotes a few times a week and
buy when down. I got lucky ( if you call paying 3 cents a pound higher than
all year lucky!) and saved the 2 cents a pound John Speckman ( commercial
beekeeper from Kansas) had to pay last week.

I always complain when I get price increases. My nature I guess. Once I was
crossing country and was complaining about the price of fuel at a truck stop
( mostly to pass the time) and the clerk said "Mister next year you will
consider these prices cheap". The next year I felt the meaning of those
words.

Today's sucrose  prices above are for dry sugar mixed with water and tested.
If Costco is selling dry sugar for forty eight cents a pound then I think I
might have faired pretty well.

Today's specs were:
Brix 67,55
PH 7.62
load temp 92F.
Filter psi 32

The two points above which beeks need to watch is Temp & PH. Temp is
impossible to determine with scrap but PH is not. Many loads of scrap are
scrap because of PH. Again exactly the importance of PH is a gray area. The
closer to 7 is what I have been told is the ideal PH.

*If* sugar prices continue to rise the beeks i work with will want me to run
experiments next spring.

I was told a wholesale place in the south was selling pallets of sugar at 
way below the prices we are discussing. The beekeeper was in Missouri 
yesterday from Nebraska and we visited.

Every year in beekeeping we are faced with crises. right? The pesticide
sprayers are in the fields and I am seeing hives with half the bees dead out
front. What can you do but pick up the pieces and move on. Always seems to 
be the same yards next to the same farmers.

bob

             ***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software.  For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html

Access BEE-L directly at:
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A0=BEE-L