[log in to unmask] writes:
We called nosema apis the silent killer
Agree
Then enters nosema ceranae and things change. Nosema issues in late summer
when the bees are trying to raise winter bees. *POSSIBLY* the most critical
time of the year for bees being overwintered in the Midwest.
Also Agree
What I see when spore counts get high is bees with a belly ache.
They quit taking syrup...are starving because the bee can not take in
syrup( Dr. Eric Mussen).
There seems to only be two ways to get any medicine in to those bees -
drench, which I personally dislike, sugar syrup kills healthy bees, and sick
ones are going to sustain some mortality from the drench (and I can document
the sugar syrup kills from our lab trials - it in itself is as lethal as
some pesticides), - syrup spiked with Honey Bee Healthy. I'm not endorsing
this product, have no idea whether it is good for bee health, but it
stimulates even sick bees to feed, take syrup. At least, that's what we've seen
with our own colonies.
<I keep hearing about hives with high spore counts which *appear* normal
but
*in my opinion* keep watching and the hive will eventually crash *unless*
the beekeeper intervenes.>
One year later, still no crash in two vastly separated parts of the US.
Nosema by itself may not be the killer.
<Some hives ( 50%) will never turn around and I have found that watching
the
others slowly return to normal effects my bottom line so depopulating and
disinfecting comb and starting fresh with a new swarm makes sense.>
Again, I Agree.
<Could a virus be the reason nosema ceranae is so hard to control. Maybe
but
will never be proven for sure and research has shown from Spain that nosema
ceranae by itself kills hives.>
Higes has seen an IIV virus. He's anxious for us to run samples, see if
bees from Spain with Nosema also have the virus. He's open minded about
this, wants to send samples. Unfortunately, Army lab is booked on other
projects, so we're not able to analyze at this time. We're trying to find an
alternative lab.
To sum up:
<With nosema apis we mainly saw a loss of older field bees ... You were
never sure the cost of the fumidil was worth the price.
With nosema ceranae we see problems in the Midwest right at the time the
main honey flow ends and the bees need to start rearing winter bees. Not a
time we ever saw nosema apis issues.>
Agree, again.
<In my opinion many of the overwintering issues comes from too small of
clusters in late winter *after the summer - non winter * bees have died
caused by hives with mid gut issues (queens?) not doing what bees do in
late
summer and fall which is raise winter bees using the shorter daylight as a
cue to begin the survival process.>
Finally, a point where we can disagree :)
CCD colonies, collapsing in fall, early winter often have huge bee
populations, 8 or more frames packed with brood of all stages, and a full super of
honey, with lots of stored pollen, and yet, they still collapse.
Your scenario plays out in a subset of colony failures, but its not
necessary the majority of cases. I do think making fall splits and then placing
those in the cold and wet of CA is a bad strategy - weak colonies can't
keep box temp as high, and both Nosema and IIV capitalize on low temps.
<When bees stop doing what bees have been doing for eons then there are
consequences. I believe that the bees many times not storing the fall honey
they used to when flowers are plentiful can be traced back to bees with mid
gut problems.>
Have to Agree, this scenario occurs.
Bees with severe N. ceranae and/or CCD in mid-summer often stall out, and
they may fail to store fall honey. But, again, that's not the case in many
instances that I've observed. Certainly, this combination of factors is
NOT good for bees.
<A researcher jumping out of his truck and taking samples and saying the
hive
with high nosema spore counts *at the time* appears normal is a far cry
from
the beekeeper which has started the hive from a nuc or package and has
monitored the progress all season.>
Dang, I have to Agree again.
My opinion:
<I believe to improve bee health today we need to solve the midgut health
issue. Toss fumigillin in the trash bin and research a new and better (
CHEAPER) product but by now the 8 million research dollars has been used.>
That's what we've been trying to do with Cramer, but his proposal to USDA
to find alternative treatments was turned down. The rejection from USDA
more or less said this wasn't important research. USDA seems to have decided
that Nosema is not a problem worth investing $$. Or at least, not
investing in the work of anyone who works with us.
>
Instead of wasting time doing the above why not simply research a new
product?<
From day one, I've said to Cramer, the priority is on finding alternatives,
and he's tried. But, like me, he can't get adequate funding - he's gotten
a bit from commodity groups and his ag station.
However, the reason to test as to whether the currently available
fumagillin product is the same as in the past is simple. This is the one legally
registered treatment that beekeepers can purchase, and beekeepers are paying
good money to use it. If it is NOT the product that the beekeepers think
they are buying, then it would be good to know. This is not a high dollar
exercise. YOu may be right, its not working; or it may be its not the
product that we think it is. If the formulation has changed, its possible
that the manufacturer could fix - and then you'd have a legal, better working
product, until something better can be produced. But, that will take time
- for research, for registration, etc.
<My paraphrase of Bob's last comment --- Spend money on finding new
treatments>
I'm almost $30k in the hole from trying to help the bee industry. Cramer
also has tapped out his funds. His NIH projects for human health support
lots of students. The Nosema work doesn't pay the way. Army has stopped
doing analyses, because they also are losing money on honey bee research.
Conducting research is like a beekeeper providing pollination services.
You might help out a grower or two by delaying payment, or loaning
colonies, but a beekeeper can't afford to provide free pollination service for 7
years. That's where we are - tapped out.
Since day one, we've emphasized the points that you make, asked for funding
to do real epidemeology, asked for funds to find treatments for Nosema.
We got Joe DeRisi at UCFS involved, and many heard his work presented at the
Galveston meeting. Like us, he's gotten some funding from groups like
PAm's. Small amounts compared to the USDA CCD money, which he also has not
been successful in accessing (at least as far as I know. He was part of our
rejected CAPS proposal). USDA early on rejected our CAPS proposal, stated
emphatically that Army, UM/MSU (my team with Cramer's), and the DeRisi
team had no experience and nothing to offer the CCD issue.
<I deeply appreciate you being willing to come on BEE-L and openly discuss
current issues!>
About all I can do at the moment. We've a bit of money to do some virus
inoculations, some analysis from PAm's and Almond Board, but that will be
gone shortly. No new money for bee disease/pest work coming our way - we've
gotten this year's cycle of rejected proposals. The next logical stages of
our work will require funds which we don't have.
I now have to focus on things that pay the bills - so we're back to our
DoD work and contract research, where the client comes to us to get things
done. I'd like to help. Cramer would like to help. DeRisi is doing best he
can. If I don't find some new research projects soon, I'm going to be
forced in to retirement end of Sept, 2011.
Jerry
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