> i find it telling the level of personal attacks going on here.

I'm sorry if you are experiencing ad hominem attacks.  That should not be.

On the other hand, I hope you are not so attached to your ideas that giving 
some of them a rigorous inspection seems like a personal attack.

One of the conditions of posting on this list is acceptance that anything 
presented is going to be inspected and dissected by a diverse and critical 
international group of participants, some of whom are bound to disagree --  
and very explicitly.

> lots of words have been put in my mouth.

That should not happen, but it happens to all of us sometimes.  It is 
annoying, but unavoidable. Sometimes it is deliberate, but often it is the 
result of hasty reading, a paucity of reading comprehension, or limited 
reasoning skills. We are, as I said, a diverse group.

> i don't have an answer for the whole industry...but the fact that a few 
> "hobby/sideline" beekeepers pointing these things out, doing things a 
> different way, and talking about it are so threatening that the level of 
> personal attack has reached the point it has here is very telling.

I don't think "a few "hobby/sideline" beekeepers pointing these things out, 
doing things a different way, and talking about it" is so much threatening 
as predictable, self-promoting, intrusive, disruptively off-topic at times, 
incoherent sometimes -- and boring at others.

Please understand that everyone here very much respects Dee, she has paid 
her dues.  But, since she has set herself up as a paragon, she is going to 
have to stand scrutiny of her affairs and methods.

Those who make no claims should not have to.  It seems you, too, are 
claiming some expertise, so you fall under examination for your critical 
abilities as well as experience, and consistency of reasoning and practices. 
You cannot expect to ride in on her coattails. (Writing with all lower case 
would seem to indicate a disrespect for convention, BTW).

> the fact that "chemical free beekeeping" is the theme for eas next year is 
> telling.

Hey, hobby beekeepers and sideliners and idealists did not come up with that 
idea.  It belongs to the entire beekeeping group and everyone considers it a 
motherhood issue, although some try to claim it for themselves.   How and 
when we achieve it, how completely, and at what cost, though, is an issue 
forever at dispute.

> you are all more than welcome to keep doing things they way you are doing 
> them...i certainly won't stop you.

That is the sort of statement that demands someone knock the chip off, so if 
you keep saying such things, expect more of the same.  Not from me, but 
there are many who consider such poppycock to be permission to knock you 
about.

> ...the feeling i get is that there is fear...fear that one "hobby" 
> beekeeper in arizona, and a beekeeping couple with good research skills, 
> good reasoning skills, a good understanding of the importance of the 
> microbial culture to the health of the bees, just over a dozen hives, and 
> a willingness to speak out have a solid basis for what they do and say.

That says it all.  You have it wrong and don't know it.

As I said, we all respect Dee, and some of us have spent a lot of time and 
effort visiting with her, debating with her, and some of us have adopted 
what we consider to be the best of her ideas. As for you, we only know what 
we see on the list, and people respond to that.  I'm sure many wonder about 
you motives, especially give how you have just described yourself to a group 
that includes (mostly lurking) lifetime professional scientists.

Anyhow, I hope that any attacks on the list will be on ideas and practices 
and not on people. I also hope that list members will not stand in the line 
of fire when their pet theories are under scrutiny. After all, why bring up 
and idea here, if the intent is not to get a critical review?

allen
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm
---
When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be 
disappointed to discover they are not it.
Bernard Bailey

 

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