Bob said:

> Many of us believe the neonicotinoids are causing beekeepers doing
> pollination problems. Not from LD50 doses but sub lethal doses. 
> ... Possibly the dose is to sub lethal to cause the "shakes"

I don't see this as having any impact on the Nosema/CCD issue.
Yes, there's what seems to be confusion, but no one has found any
pesticide connection to the CCD problem at all.

But since you mention it, there's a "problem", but everyone's hives 
get too low an exposure to result in any detectable symptoms?  
How's that gonna happen, exactly? :)

The usual case with any pesticide exposure is that one sees a range
of symptoms, indicative of a variation in the exposure of different
sets of bees.  I have to question any claim that is not backed up
with the classical spectrum of symptoms, ranging from "nothing" to,
in many cases, dead bees.

Lots of folks have seen Imidacloprid pesticide kills before, so
the classical symptoms are not the basis for much confusion.

> The way to look at the neonicotinoids in my opinion is simple. 
 
If CCD teaches us anything at all, it should teach us once and
for all that "x is simple" is an inherently incorrect statement.
If something was both simple and correct, eleventy-seven guys 
would all share that opinion, and all would have similar tangible 
proof to back them up.  It is much safer to assume that if one 
views a bee-related issue as "simple", one has yet to grasp the 
basic facts of the issue.

> The chemical companies wish to talk LD50 

The EPA came up with that standard, can't blame the companies for
working to comply with the requirements, or even for gaming the
system to appear to meet the metrics with funny numbers.  They
are for-profit companies, beholden only to their share price
and the large institutional investors that demand constant
double-digit returns.

> and commercial migratory beeks want to talk sub lethal. Both the 
> chemical companies and the beeks have no real data on sub lethal.

Why? 'Cause the EPA does not demand data on sublethal impact!
News flash - no one designs cars and trucks to be aerodynamic
enough to reduce windshield impact bee kills either.  To do so 
would be childishly easy, but without a regulation to require 
the protection of insects like bees in this regard, no one 
bothers to even think about the "problem".  It first must be 
defined as a problem worth solving.  Industry certainly
postures as "green" but anything more than fluff and PR requires 
regulations.

> The commercial migratory beekeeper position is the need for some 
> label changes concerning the use of neonicotinoids on certain crops 
> bees pollinate. 

Be specific here - are the bees subjected to residues of application
done prior to their foraging, or is this the same old complaint about
the effect of soil applications of neonicotinoids with the usual
magical claims that these applications could remain toxic long
enough (and in place long enough) to invisibly hurt the bees?

I assume you aren't talking about the more simple and traditional
scenarios of drift, overspray, and so on. 

> We realize we have not got the clout to get neonicotinoids 
> pulled from the market.

Sure we gave the clout - we just lack one tiny little item - DATA!  :)

And we beekeepers have so much clout these days it is silly.

I was sent a video of a TV commercial that is running nationwide,
paid for by the Haagen-Dazs ice cream company.  It asks everyone
to help save the honey bee.  I can't even wear any of my beekeeping
tee-shirts in public any more without getting stopped and asked
about "the bees dying".  We've had so much press coverage, I'm getting
about 100 e-mails a week simply asking for clarification on points
in my Bee Culture articles (not that I can claim to have made any
significant dent in the ongoing deluge of clueless and inaccurate 
reporting that seems to be the norm).  There's an explosion of
sign-ups for new beekeeper courses at local associations.

Beekeepers now have more "clout" than ever before in the USA.
But clout alone will not create data or facts, nor can we
expect to see neonicitinoids "pulled from the market" unless
we are willing to back to the pesticides that neonicitinoids
replaced, all which were much more toxic to bees.

> Right not the most problem areas are cantaloupes, apples and citrus.

So what specific grower practices are the problem on these crops,
what are the specific symptoms that can indicate impact on bees, and
what could be done differently to reduce the impact?

Beekeepers DO have clout.  If label changes are needed, this is a
legitimate area where the clout we have can be used without fear
of appearing to be selfish whiners.

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