Hello Keith, Bob & All,

    Keith said:
    Maybe it is because none of the voices above are unified in the mission of
    keeping bees without any treatments at all.

    Bob Said:
    Bees can not survive the ravages of varroa without some beekeeper help be it
    varroa tolerant queens (best choice by far) , small cell , IPM methods etc.

Me:
        Actually Bob, I couldn't disagree more. The bees in the wild have been strongly influenced by continued 'beekeeping' pressures, both in breeding and environment (migratory beekeeping and manual selection; manual means 'done by man'). The bees in the wild are very much influenced by local beekeeping practices. Bee populations that are left alone and after they have the opportunity to be selected naturally show the ability to survive just fine on their own. My computer is still not setup so I can't provide documented support readily, but there have been several studies in more removed areas of wild bees, and they are not only still present but are on the rise despite the so called alien presence of V mites.

I keep bees successfully without aiding them in the game of life. They win or loose by their own merits. The only function I perform is keeping their combs straight for my convenience so I may inspect them. If I see a problem, I note the problem and observe the outcome. So far with few exceptions, the bees have taken care of their own problems by themselves. The exceptions were a few hives that just didn't make through their trial. Mother nature did her job admirably and removed and made vacant the presence of an entity and made room for another contestant.

----snip----

    Keith said:
    I only know of one in your list above that is keeping bees successfully
    commercially without any treatments at all.

Bob:
    What about me?

Me:
        Are you really treatment free? Is your definition of treatment free the same as Keith's, Dee's, or my own? If you read what I wrote above, then you have a better idea of what is 'treatment free'. The only long term successful treatment to a pressure such as varroa is what the bees can manage for themselves or none at all. My ideals for treatment free might even be a bit more strict than Dee's. The bees either can do it or they cannot. The majority of mine do it on their own, and since I don't waste needless dollars or man-hours trying to fix what ain't really broke to begin with keeps my profit line in the black despite copious investments in lumber and livestock for growth.

-----snip-----

    Keith said:
    treatments or fancy apparatus to keep bees alive, all that is
    needed is for beekeepers to learn how to keep bees as they were kept over
    100 years ago.

    Bob:
        If a good point exists about varroas arrival  it is all the new discoveries
    which have been made since the arrival of varroa about our honey bees around
    the world by researchers and beekeepers. I believe I have got the largest
    collection of old bee books in the Midwest and enjoy reading books of a 100
    years ago and on occasion quote from same. I have NEVER found an answer to
    todays tough beekeeping problems in the old books.

Me:
        interestingly enough, I must disagree again. If you read CC Miller, old abc's & xyz's and such, you will find something common among them all. All those innovations and inventions that have succeeded are those that have made the life of beekeepers easier, but and its a big but, only when the lifestyle, behavior and self-management of the bees is relatively unaffected. All innovations and inventions which limit, hinder or augment a particular behavior or way of life for the bees has almost in every case resulted in failure either immediately or some shorter or longer term in the future. There isn't an answer to any single question directly addressed within any single book, but all the old books point to one general direction. We as beekeepers (and people) have a lot to learn, and our teachers are the bees themselves and mother nature. Innovations which do not try to outsmart either bee or nature succeed. Those which we impliment because we are 'smarter' than the bees or mother nature are forever doomed to fail, either today or perhaps 100 or more years from now.

--
Scot Mc Pherson
Linux From Scratch
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/
http://groups.yahoo.com/OrganicBeekeepers/

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